I'm a 45 year old white guy.  Groups of young black men dressed like thugs, gangstas, hip-hop, whatever, sorry if I don't know the differnce between all the genres, make me nervous.  I avoid them.  I don't know them, just judge them by their looks and cross the street.  Didn't Jesse Jackson say the same thing about himself a few years ago?  Don't you think Barack would be nervous in the mean streets without Secret Service around?  Shouldn't he be?  Michael Eric Dyson wrote a whole essay about fear of young black men, and how it's not just something white people feel.   By the way, I avoid scary white people, and I hope you do, too.  It's called common sense.  I'm not sure of the point where common sense becomes racism, but I'd rather not lose my wallet or go to the hospital trying to find out.

Point being, Barack's "Grams" avoids scary people just like the rest of us -- for reasons of self-preservation. and common sense.  I don't apologize or feel guity when I make surface judgements and avoid scary white people based on their appearance alone -- why should I feel guilty or apologize about doing the same thing regarding blacks?

When I was younger and had longer hair and a "wilder" appearance (as society judges these things), I used to get pulled over by the cops while driving.  Sure it would've happend more often if I were black.  If I get on the elevator and there's only a woman in there alone, I can feel her nervousness, see her switch her handbag and edge away.  Sure this would happen more often if I were young and black.  Sure she would be more nervous if several males came in together, not just me.

Some people are scarier than others.  Males are generally scarier than females.  Groups are are scarier than individuals.  Black males are generally scarier than whites and younger are scarier than older.  Young black males in groups take the prize on scariness, but they don't have a monopoly.  Do I have to pretend this isn't true in order to establish non-racist cred?

I'm a white woman who has been dismayed by the freak-out over the "typical white person" comment.  I find it interesting that the same folks freaking out are usually the first to complain about the how "touchy" the  black community is about race. What really bothered me is that the meaning of Sen. Obama's comments was completely lost under the outraged gabbling of pundits. I'm hoping that people will begin to analyze the content, rather than focus on an out of context phrase.

a47percenter says:

“Black males are generally scarier than whites and younger are scarier than older.  Young black males in groups take the prize on scariness, but they don't have a monopoly.”

The above further reinforces the point made in this blog “Often, they use a little information to glean broad generalities about people of color, and it affects how they relate to us.”.  True we all prejudge but your quote in how it is presented clearly illustrates these sweeping generalities. I do agree that a group of young males of any ethnicity can be scary when confronted on the street but that is my personal opinion and your opinion i.e. the above should be stated as such hence “I believe black males….” or “In my opinion black males…”. I have in my life have been threatened by both groups of young males, white and black. And I can tell you of many of my elder African American friends who were raised to avoid a group of young white males from not only being physically harassed but also to avoid be hung.  So your experiences should not hold as a fact for us all, b/c it surely doesn’t hold for me. Thank you.

Hi All.

Thanks for reading and discussing. I've been bad about engaging the conversation, but, as time permits, I promise to be better.

The most disturbing thing about a47percenter's comments isn't the idea that black folks are scary per se, its the idea that "black men dressed like thugs, gangstas, hip-hop, whatever, sorry" create some kind of fear.

My first question becomes, what do thugs, gangstas, et al look/dress like? Do young white men dressed similarly--as they are wont to do nowadays--cause the same kind of alarm? I remember in the late 80s, when all the white boys thought it was preppy to sag your Levi's. Now, black guys are doing, it, and we wanna make it against the law. What gives?

If you saw me on the street, would you think I was a award-winning journalist and opinion writer, or a thug? How would you make that judgment, from down the street? Hip-hop/thug/gangsta are not interchangeable descriptors.  I just need some clarification on the whole idea, because it just sounds like Typical White Folk-talk to me.

Jimi,

I'm not sure why my comment about young black men is disturbing.  Would be it be less disturbing if it came from cultural observers like Bill Cosby or intellectuals like Michael Eric Dyson or civil rights stalwarts like C. Delores Tucker and Jesse Jackson?  Because they've all made similar observations.  Also, isn't striking fear or upset into their elders and society at large at least part of the reason young people often dress and act the way they do?  I certainly did in my teen years.  All I did was state the obvious: the current younger generation is quite successful at doing  it -- with me, with Barack's grandmother, and with lots of other people of all races.  Have I said anything disturbing yet?

As for your question about white thugs being scary, too?  Yup -- said that in the original post.

As for what I might think of you if I saw you on the street -- that depends on a lot of things: not just the circumstances and my own prejudices, but also on you and how you present yourself.  Yup, people judge me and you and every Snoop Dogg or M and M wannabe based on our appearances.  Have I said anything disturbing yet, or even mildly controversial?

And why make this about you?  As I said in the original post, I get the same treatment from strangers (prejudical fear) just by being male.  I don't get upset when single women get nervous in elevators or cross the street to avoid me.  It's not personal.  It was worse when I was younger, and back then I probably walked and dressed a certain way to foster it, just as some young people do today.

Now if I said it should be against the law to dress a certain way (something you attributed to me), that might be disturbing.  But I didn't.  C. Delores Tucker might have, though (and if she or anyone else did, I'd oppose it).  Me, I just prefer to cross the street.

So am I a typical White person?  And what gives you the blank check to make those kinds of generalizations if you're going to attack them in others?  Anyway, my point is that my and Barack's grandmother's sentiments about young black men are shared by a large part of society, both black and white.  And smarter people than me have already made this point rather compellingly.  (Check out Race Rules by Michael Dyson for just one example.)  And as Learned1 pointed out, people who don't share those particular prejudices may harbor other ones about other races.

Cicada1 -- I've heard some uproar from white aquaintances, too, about Barack's comments.  I don't think he pissed off any of his supporters, though.  The people who weren't going to vote for him anyway are just using it as a pretext to come out of the woodwork and mouth off.

Learned1 -- you made my point.  A very tiny percentage of white people would ever harm or lynch the elder African Americans you wrote about, but the fear is strong enough to make them avoid all groups of young whites. And why not?  Should they take the chance on being the next James Byrd, just to achieve the politically correct version of a  clean conscience?  I couldn't agree more with them or you, and I can certainly relate.  As for which group is scariest -- you're right, it depends on your perspective.  No single group takes the prize, except subjectively.  There are hoodlums in all races, and plenty of prejudice to go around, too.  My bad.

Jimi -- So if there is something "typically White" about my attitude, it's that I unreasonably fear young blacks to greater extent than I unreasonably fear young whites.  But since the same atittude exists in reverse amoung Blacks, why single out Whites?

Jimi -- So if there is something "typically White" about my attitude, it's that I unreasonably fear young blacks to greater extent than I unreasonably fear young whites.  But since the same atittude exists in reverse amoung Blacks, why single out Whites?

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actually, there is no reverse of the irrational fear whites have of blacks. Yes, when the KKK was openly accepted, there was a RATIONAL fear that many blacks had at the time for their safety. The fear you speak of has no rationale to it and is based soley on stereotypes and preconceived notions. Fear is not some mysterious thing that comes from nowhere. It is the direct result of a lack of knowledge. You know very little about black people, so therefore you are unable to distinguish a good person from a bad person. It is all just "black" to you. Sadly, many people are uninformed and share this view (hence the term, "typical"). Just because something is genarally accepted does not make it right or okay. Every atrocity that mankind later realized was wrong (slavery, holocaust, trail of tears) was once genrally accepted as normal. Saying "it's normal, therefore its right" is no excuse. You also don't need to keep constantly asking "am I controversial yet?" Sounds like you are begging for attention rather than having an intelligent discussion.

Another reason a47percenter's "irrational fear is right" theory falls flat on its face is based on the nature of crime itself. Most serious crimes (rape, theft, murder) usually happen within their respective racial group. If someone is murdered, 80-90% of the time the culprit is someone of the same race. So realistically, the people who should fear murder or rape by the hands of a black person are black people. A person who is fearful without thinking is easily controlled. Plenty of people, from real estate agents to politicians, take advantage of this all the time.

Typical white people and typical black people had better come to the understanding that Senator Obama is trying to make us see. As long as the rich white power structure can keep us bickering amongst each other, all of our children are getting a crappy education, all of us are paying $3.50 for a gallon of gas, all of us will not see universal healthcare and all of us are paying for a war we don't need, while the rich keep getting richer and the standard of living goes down for ALL OF US TYPICAL AMERICANS.  

I agree with reinadelaz.

I can see how far we have to go, if you mean all races, which you obviously do not. But I guess that's because you are "typical black person".

I actually think I'm atypical, as I do no ascribe to conventional thought about race and racism, in most cases. As a matter of fact, it seems as if I am always having to show my Black credentials for inspection. White folks think I am SuperBlack,but Black folks don't think I am Black enough, or Black, in the wrong way e.g. "Ghetto".

S'funny.

I think White Folks have the luxury of putting the fight for good politics ahead of the fight for identity in this country. This political race will come and go, but black people will still be black. I think we will all reach a mutual understanding, because as the country gets browner and browner, there won't be a choice. But I don't think Black folks will ever be typical Americans. At least, not in my lifetime.

I consider myself to be atypical as well, being a white woman who lost custody of my white kids in a North Florida court because of my relationship with an AfroCuban man. But I have learned that we have a lot more in common than not. Any Southerner in New York will have to go to Harlem to get grits for breakfast, no matter the color of his skin. Do you work a job? Typical. Do you send your kids to school? Typical. Do you want them to have better opportunities than you've had? Typical. Do you pay your bills? Typical. Do you take fewer vacations than you would like? Typical. Do you have less pocket cash than you used to? Typical.Do you bleed red? Typical. We really are all in the same boat and until we admit it, the rich get richer.

I'm a 60 year old, gray haired, fat white guy who grew listening to MLK, Jr , Malcolm X and Jesse and understand Rev. Wright and his audience. What's the big deal? The only thing more pathic than an aging White Hipster is a young White Hipster who thinks he's a 'gangsta'.. Mr. Izrael is correct - privileged white people don't have to answer to anybody. As I recall, Malcolm X felt that blacks didn't have to answer to anybody (especially white folks). I guess speaking the truth has a political downside!

I appreciate the dialog, but a critical question has gone unanswered.

What constitutes dressing like thug/hip-hop/gangsta? Have these terms become interchangable in the zeitgeist? How do we differentiate and who is the arbiter? Any time a black man is dressed casually, he is dressed like a gangsta? I remember that during the 80s, some white people thought that everyone wearing "X" hats and such were drug dealers. This was actually a news item! What's up with that?

Wow, Jimi.  How dripping with contempt.  How "trapped inside your own echo chamber".  How "nodding in the pews" while some thumper is getting it off blasting the white folks, are you!

When typical white people do try to talk to typical black people, they get *** smacked that they don't/can't/never will understand and are guilty guilty guilty because of events unchangable from 150 years ago.

Typical white people are trapped but not by their bigotry.  They are boxed in by the bigotry of black folks who will always draw the lines for them.

Typical white people are befuddled by typical black folk who will always fall back on the black excuse for everything that happens to them.  Here is an example; I worked in an inner city hospital.  The doctor groups were African American.  The head nurse was African American.  A job opened and 2 techs applied for it, both African American.  One was choosen over the other because of qualifications.  For days we had sulking, pouting, and dismal moody displays from the other because he wasn't selected.  And he said to us typical white folk, "it's because I'm black".  And he meant it.

When typical white folks reach out to invite black folks in, we are told we don't get it, we're "well meaning",  Only people of color can wallow in victimhood.  Only people of color SUFFER.  Only people of color are allow to wail on and on and on,  and on again.  Only people of color are allowed to teach and preach to the next generation about how they suffered and should be on guard against whitey, who will make their lives miserable through blatant racism or well meaning bungling.

There is no bridge in the world of the typical person of color because we all become typical white folk to be held in contempt for even trying.

Yesh. Tsk. Typical.

Hi there.

I've been reading this blog for three days now, and what have I learned?  I've learned that white fear of blacks is an acceptable topic.  It gives Jimi a chance to articulate his condescension toward "typical" white people who feel this fear.  And it gives the Dewfishes of the world a chance to insult any hapless white who dares to profess to hold this fear.

I've also learned that black fear of whites is accpetable, too, because of the KKK, at least according to the Dewfishes of the world.

And I've learned that black fear of blacks is a taboo topic.  Jimi and Dewfish won't talk about it.  Why not?  Maybe because they lose their chance to feel superior to fearful whites.

Here's a quote:

"There is nothing more painful to me at this stage in my life than to walk down the street and hear footsteps and start thinking about robbery - then look around and see somebody white and feel relieved."

That's not a quote from me or Barack's relatives or any white person.  That's a quote from civil rights activist and former presidential candidate Jesse Jackson Sr., at a PUSH coalition meeting in Chicago, 1993.

Jimi -- there's no point in asking white people, or even Rev. Jackson, what we fear about blacks.  It's disingenuous.   He's not an exception, and we're not test tubes in a reserach project.  Ask yourself why you fear your fellow blacks, if you can honestly look your reflection in the mirror.  Ask your friends and neighbors and family members -- we're talking about a fear that's felt by blacks as well as whites.  If you get a chance, read Race Rules by Michael Dyson.  He doesn't just assert that the fear exists anecdotally -- he brings evidence to the table.

So what else have I learned from reading this blog?  I've learned to feel a lot more nostalgic respect for Jesse Jackson Sr., a politician and commentator who's not afraid to broach taboo subjects honestly and directly.

I'm a young, white American male living in a foreign country.  As a foreigner, I occasionally experience discrimination.  It has made me keenly aware of my "whiteness," and makes me identify with whiteness in a way I never did while living in the US.  It is very true that whites in America have the privilege of seeing themselves as non-racial.  In Universities, Booker T Washington and Marcus Garvey are taught in Black Studies courses, while Nietzsche and Kant are taught in Philosophy courses.  We whites have ourselves convinced we are "the people" and everyone else is a demographic group.  

Historically, the black experience in America has obviously been an unequal one to say the least.  But in the same way that white Americans see themselves as individuals divorced from any "white" group, white Americans also see society as divorced from its past; our brave new world we have created is our birthright which we alone deserve, because we are the culmination of history.  Those two aspects of the mindset of white American society: divorced from race and divorced from history explain how so many whites can honestly believe that racial equality has been achieved in America.  I believe this explains how white people can be shocked that there is anger at them and at America in the black community.  It explains how whites can honestly believe that Jeremiah Wright is racist while an old white woman afraid of black men is just expressing the obvious.

The funny thing about racism is that the group in power has the ability to enforce it, while the minority does not.  Jeremiah Wright can't do anything to white people, but a white DA can get a black man sent to deathrow with an all-white jury.  Most white people can't see this, because they are mentally divorced from race and from history.  

"The privilege of being white is the ability to be seen as an individual, free of any duty to answer to anyone."  That privilege is grounded in delusion.  White Americans spend their entire lives completely unaware of who and what they really are.  If the new Obama-inspired discourse on race in America is to succeed, white people must be reminded of their place in society and in history, and black people must realize many white people want to do what's right, but most are laboring under delusions.  I realized that I'm a "typical white person."  But I had to leave the US to realize it.  I had to live as a foreigner and a minority to understand who I'm not in order to understand who I am.  

Thank you.  

a47percenter, you completely missed the point again. First, "whites fear of blacks" isn't a topic at all, its a personal opinion. that opinion is basically fear due to lack of knowlwdge. I haven't insulted you at all.

As far as the KKK, yes when law enforcement and the government in general supported the actions of the KKK, there was valid reason to fear groups of whites at the time, especially when neighborhoods were so segregated at the time. Back then, if you saw a group of white men in a black neighborhood, it was for a definite reason, and most likely not good. Add that to the fact that if something were to happen to you, the police, the judge, and the mayor would look the other way. That was a rational fear. And once again, i am not talking about now, i am talking about back when there open acceptance of the KKK and what they stood for.

The type of fear you describe is irrational. Just as I stated earlier, you are far more likely to be robbed/raped/murdered by a white person than a black person. Crime usually happens within race. That is why it makes perfect sense that Jesse Jackson was more fearful of the young black people than a white person.

As far as this being a "taboo" topic, were talking about it right now. You keep claiming to be so controversial and taboo, but you aren't saying anything of substance. I don't feel "superior" to anyone. Were addressing the issues and concerns right now. Join the discussion instead of sitting on on the sidelines saying you're too "controversial" to be a part of it.

1. Jimi asks "what does dressing thug/gangsta/hip-hop mean"?   Well, your mileage may vary, but...

Pants: large enough to be the "before" pants for Biggest Loser contestants.

Color coordination: Monochrome is it!  If you have taken the time to wear your white jacket, white pants, white runners, and white hat, you are dressing hip hop!

Headgear: bandanas are an excellent thug accessory.

Then again, you could just be coming back from snowboarding.

2. "Only people of color" have to give an "accounting."  Jimi is right on here but I don't take as much umbrage to it.  I feel that most people are pretty lazy conversationally.  Having a conversation about your real interests requires them to find out what they are.  When you're a racial minority, these lazy conversationalists find that to be a handy, instant topic, as opposed to having to learn about your fascination with Sikhism or screwdriver collection, or whatever.  

In truth, this is a self-serving excuse because, frankly, I love having conversations about race.  And I can almost not get away from them.  I'm yellow, my mother married black, my wife is white!  Naturally we are have takes on race.  (The consensus view is that as a divider of humanity, race pales, so to speak, to wealth.)  It beats talking about football all the time.

Dewfish sez: "The type of fear you describe is irrational. Just as I stated earlier, you are far more likely to be robbed/raped/murdered by a white person than a black person. Crime usually happens within race. That is why it makes perfect sense that Jesse Jackson was more fearful of the young black people than a white person."

Well, one could also say it makes perfect sense that street robbery is more likely done by a poor person than by a relatively well-off person, who has less immediate need of cash.  If there's a real income and employment disparity between white and black in America, it would follow that one group is more likely to resort to street robbery than the other.  

Is that racist?  It is if you say that it means that black people deserve higher punishments for the same crime, or are more inherently criminal.  Which would be nonsense.  Rich people do rich people thefts, e.g. Enron.

As for crime usually happening within race, wouldn't that be a function of co-location rather than the perpetrator's preference?  Surely a mugger only cares about the wallet.

"There is nothing more painful to me at this stage in my life than to walk down the street and hear footsteps and start thinking about robbery - then look around and see somebody white and feel relieved."

this forum is not the only place I've seen Jackson quoted and most of the time the quote serves as some kind of  evidence that black people are in fact scary, at least on the street. Since Jackson a public figure with some authority says it, it has even more weight--see even black people, not just an ordinary person but a civil rights activist, a leader, is scared of black people on the street. but let's look at the quote, a little more closely. Jackson says it is "painful," that when he sees a white person instead of a black person behind him he feels relief. In fact, there is nothing more painful than this feeling of relief. Let's note that he feels relieved not after he has left this stretch of the road, say, and reached home, or some more populated area where he might feel safer,but after seeing that the person behind him is white instead of black. To be clearer, it is not having escaped some imminent threat of violence robbery whatever, that causes in him the sense of relief, but just the colour of his follower's skin. this is why it is painful to him because his fear is so irrational yet so potent, and it is fear directed at a black person who hasn't harmed him in any way. and it is painful because this fear can only be directed at a black person, not a white person. but there's more: it's painful because even a civil rights activist who has fought for and spoken for the rights of black people and against discrimination is capable of feeling this fear because it is not a personal thing, it does not come from within him, it is woven into the fabric of this society where this "fear" passes as genuine, and even someone who with every fabric of his morality, intellect, activism, whatever, is susceptible to this fear. that is why it is painful. I just want to note one more thing--Jackson doesn't once mention the word fear, just relief, and he doesn't mention a black person at all. he doesn't say it is painful for him to see a black person and feel fear, but that it is painful for him to see a white person and feel relief. We think he implies it, right? Well for Jackson it is not so easy to admit, he cannot say it directly, for those who listen to him it's all to easy to deduce, we automatically jump to the conclusion that he means he's afraid of black people on the street at least (although the Wright affair seems to hint that this fear-of-black-men is not directed only to black people on the street). By not mentioning a black person Jackson makes it obvious that the presence of a black man's body is not even necessary for this fear to be felt, it is projected by Jackson (and everyone else), not caused by the black male (who in this case is not even there),  Basically I have two points to make in conclusion--1. The fact that we can all decode Jackson's comment for its implicit content shows just how pervasive fear-of-black-men is, it is idiomatic, it has become understandable to all because of its pervasive usage (wikipedia: An idiom is an expression, that is a term or phrase whose meaning cannot be deduced from the literal definitions and the arrangement of its parts, but refers instead to a figurative meaning that is known only through common use). 2. Jackson is questioning his fear, questioning his inability to resist it despite his lifelong commitment to civil rights, neither condoning it nor attributing it to the black man as its cause (remember, there is no black man in Jackson's comment.).

Sorry just wanted to correct this one sentence in the middle of the comment

and even someone who with every fabric of his morality, intellect, activism, is opposed to its existence, is nevertheless susceptible to this fear.

I agree with Maya. The fear is very pervasive, and exists among many other races as well as white people. This is what I am trying to tell a47percenter. We are all basically agreeing that this is a widespread problem, and that that level of irrational fear isn't just held by whites. The problem is, a47percenter is so hell-bent on telling everyone he's "taboo" for bringing up the subject, that he isn't even listening to everyone is saying.

The fear is pervasive, but it doesn't have to do with the person who frightens you, in this context. It has to do with the way this fear is normalised in society as natural and genuine. So what I am saying is we need to question these truisms rather than simply accepting them as truth. What I am saying is that in this society it is easy and acceptable to demonise black men as the cause of fear.  That doesn't make it the truth.

Dewfish,

This is water under the bridge by now, but you called me "uninformed", you said I knew "very little", and you compared my comments to justifications for slavery, the Holocaust and the Trail of Tears.  Then you wrote that you didn't insult me.  If you really meant no offense, and I'm willing to take you at your word, it may be time to brush up on those all-important people skills.

As for me missing the point -- I've consistently written about white fear of blacks.  That was point of Obama's anecdote about his grandmother, which resulted in Jimi's article about typical white people.  I just took it a step further, pointing out that blacks share the same fear, perhaps to a different extent as Learned1 pointed out, and perhaps with greater psychic pain, as Maya pointed out.  But either way, the fear is not "typically white".  I got the impression that Barack's grandmother felt a lot of psychologically pain herself when she confessed her fear to her grandson.  Y'know what -- I did, too, when I wrote about it in my earlier post.  I still do.  We all know the world shouldn't be this way.

You made a statement that criminals are more likely to prey on people of their own color.  That's statistically correct, but only insofar as it reflects the co-location of our mostly segregated society, as Yammer pointed out.  Criminals find their opportunities close to home.  The statistics themselves mean nothing to the white person who happens to find him or herself in proximity to to black criminals, just as the stats are meaningless to the criminals.    In other words, and writing this hurts too, whites are less like to be victims of black crime ...  because we stay away from black people and black neighborhoods.  Many black people don't have that luxury.  The very fear voiced by Barack's grandmother is what keeps her safe, no matter how much Jimi chooses to denigrate her fear and chide "typical White people" for feeling it and acting on it.

Okay,  judging by your final post, you've adjusted somewhat from your earlier comments.  You now agree that people of all races share the same fear.  I appreciate that, by the way -- it takes a big person to do it.  Will Jimi do some adjustment as well, and concede that the fear is not just for "typical White people"?

As for me being controversial, I first used the word rhetorically.  I thought I was stating an obvious, boring platitude when I first wrote that both blacks and whites fear young black males, particularly in groups.  It never occurred to me that anyone would find that statement controversial.  But apparently people do.  Jimi avoids it, pretending the fear is a "typical white" attitude, and you denied it by misusing statistics and  misinterpreting Rev. Jackson's comments.  Except that now you're acknowledging the fear across all races -- Maya seems to have persuaded you.

As for me sitting on the sidelines instead of joining the discussion: say what?  Check the commentary thread -- I started this discussion.  I've address everyone who addresses me, directly, not as often as I wanted, but as timely as my work schedule allows.  If anything, I'm probably overly-involved in all this, but it's fun.  At the same time, it's intellectually stimulating.  I take it seriously, and I appreciate almost everyone's commentary.

As for black fear of other blacks being taboo, that's only true as long as nobody talks about it honestly.  Jesse did, Maya did, and maybe now you are, too.  I'm hopeful for further honest discourse.

Peace.

Still doesn't get it. As far his grandmother goes, how can you assume that the only way she has been "safe" her entire life was by not being around black people. First of all, how do you even know she's been "safe" all of these years? he told one small anecdote about his grandmother, and instead of blaming her irrational fear, you blame any and all black men she may have come in contact with? When I said you were uninformed and didn't know anything, it wasn't to insult, it was said because it is true. instead of acknowledging that a preconceived notion may be off the mark, he uses the "elephant repellent" defense to justify irrational behavior. You would like to portray yourself as some "controversial truth teller", but the truth is, you're just another internet guy with weak arguments. Very typical attitude.

a47percenter, It would be one thing if you actually had a valid point, but everything you say is based on assumptions and preconceived notions. the statistics clearly say that most major crimes happen within their respective racial group. Your argument just doesn't have a leg to stand on.

a47%, stepping into your shoes, I completely understand WHY you are afraid of black people or the youth in general.  .  You don't know how to differentiate between a hip hopper and thug. You haven't been exposed to our culture. Which, I assume is the reason why you are on this site.  Kudos to you.

Just like you don't want every black person to assume that you are a Klan-member "out of the uniform", black males don't want you to think that we are thugs b/c of our style, hair or stunning good looks.  Honestly, black males don't wear clothes b/c they are trying to scare white people. Most black men assume that white people are scared of everything that’s different anyway (rev. wright anyone).   That male with baggy pants, and most of his friends, thinks that their style is cool.  

On a lighter note,  it's not a sign that a group of females want to sleep with you just because they are walking in your direction.  Even if you are in a Gentlemen’s Club.

ANYWAY,Jimi's real point isn't whether or not white people should fear black men.  It's the fact that we (typical black males) have to "translate"/explain to the "typical white person" (that's you) that they should not fear anyone based on race or appearance.  What is a mystery to you is common sense to us.  

Obviously, you should be cautious if you are in a rough neighborhood.  However, if you are in an airplane, doctor’s office, sporting event, restaurant, movie theater...etc.   Just relax because that Black person that you fear isn't thinking about you.  You are probably the last thing on their mind.  

Great discussion topic Jimi

Well said Mable

A47% , Where do you and all these evil black people live....lol?  just curious?

Interesting – but it is obvious that people are not willing to address racism and its effects on the human psychic.  Your racism has affected deeply me and made me racist and my racism has reaffirmed your racism which has made me an activist. You could not see me, see my pain and me.  I in turn thought that I knew who you were, but was wrong, but my pain, my despair blinded me and I could not see you.

When I was young black male coming of age, I used to use my blackness to scare white people.  I used to my blackness to scare black people.  I scared white people because I was angry, I wanted revenge, I wanted opportunity, I wanted equal access and I scared white people just to be seen.  I supported Martin Luther King, I believed Malcolm, I thought Stokley was the man, I  wanted to pick up arms with Huey, I read Elbridge and was set free.

Oh, I scared black people to protect myself, to survive,  to be seen, to be heard, to be recognized… to be a man.

Now with age, I wonder if I have not been so scary and stopped to really listen, not attacking , but listening, where I would have been, where could I have gone…

This is thing about racism – it is double edge sword; it cuts both ways makes us all bleed.

Wow This is the first blog thread I have really enjoyed in a long time.  I think it was mostly stimulating to see the actual response differential between the races.  Mabel was lovely.  As an immigrant, I am in the same boat, seeing both American blacks and whites within the context of history and identity formation.  

As a well educated African woman, who grew up with a father who is a professor with mostly white colleagues who all agreed on the essential sense in fearing African Americans, I have had many conversations with whites who desired dialogue on the subject.  a47percenter, you are so right, dewfish, you are so right, izreal, you are so deluded.  

No one in America exists in a racial vacuum.  Identity is formed in contrast to others as much as in association with self.  Dewfish points out that a47percenter's lack of association only leaves him with the option of contrast -- but that contrast is limited because he doesn't actually know any young black males.  Because of that, your legitimately human  generalizations will always be too broad to be accurate and too personal to be genralizable.  

However, what we must give you credit for is that you are engaged.  Many of the conversations I have had with whites center on the request for information -- a voyeuristic desire to see inside the 'mystery of blackness'.  There is little desire to engage blacks and to integrate lives.  I go through the same thing with all Americans asking me about Nigeria.  There is no desire to cross the ocean, but there is curiosity about what it is like.  From these tidbits, huge and often weird generalizations are formed.  a47percenter is much better informed  than most of his counterparts.  But just like learning a few greetings and curse words does not mean that I know Spanish, I am afraid that a47percenter does not understand blackness -- he may be interested in reading the theological/anthropolgical school of thought on the "indigenous oppressed".

The ability for whites to define themselves with a very minimal contrast is really the crux of this matter.  "Grams" does not have to examine the issues inherent in her own race due to its dominant status.  Young whites terrorize, burglarize, vandalize their own neighborhoods in much greater numbers than young blacks.  Property crime among whites is in the 70 percents while violent crimes are in the 30 percents.  That 30 percent is still 3 times the numbers of the 50 percent of blacks accused of violent crimes -- which, as has been stated, is almost 90 percent within their own race.  I currently work in the juvenile court system, so it is my job to be up on htese stats.

New Yorks taxicabs and the racial profiling debacle, with doctors, lawyers, internationally reknowned politicians and entertainers all reporting the same harrassment show how some knowledge is as bad as no knowledge.   As long as whites do not have to examine themselves and have the leisure to focus on and examine everybody else, then they will create categories and defintions that the rest of us are subject to in the media and popular culture.  It is a perk of power.  a47percenter, I am sorry, but trying to divorce yourself from this natural consequence of oppressing and abnegating the rights of others is like baking a pie, then saying the pie you are eating is not the same pie you just baked.  You cannot separate the two.

I have been so intrigued by this discussion that I signed up on this site so that I could add the view of an atypical white male who grew up in a mixed race, working class Philadelphia neighborhood.  I’m not sure where dewfish gets the statistics that 80-90% of serious crimes involve people of the same race.  I have been physically assaulted or robed at knife or gun point about a dozen times while in high school in the late 90’s, sometimes for my money and sometimes just for the sake of causing me physical harm.  This does not include the times where I avoided an obvious setup or the times that I was threatened but was either able to escape or the threat was being done just to shake me.  Every single time this happened to me the perpetrator was a black male, or a group of black males.  Given that history would you blame me if I was nervous if I saw a group of black males heading towards me on the street?  

Thankfully I have escaped falling into that trap and am able to see the people who attacked as separate from their race.  They were not standard bearers for their race nor should any other person be tied to their actions.  This is what frustrates me about the use of the word “typical.”  At what point is the term typical acceptable to use.  Does it have to be backed up by statistics?  What if it’s just based upon your experience, as Obama’s statement was?  Statistically close to 70% of African Americans born in the last 20 years were born to single mothers. Would it be okay if McCain said that the typical African American is born to a single mother?  There’s truth in his statement but casting generalizations will only serve to anger people, especially if the behavior you’re describing is seen as negative and you’re not perceived as a member of the group that you’re describing.  

I appreciate the frustration of African Americans who feel blocked out by a white majority.  I have myself been frustrated and embarrassed by the behavior by some of the white people around me but I have also been frustrated when people I grew up with were offered opportunities over me based upon their race.  I will not fall into the trap blaming the race or the individual though I am tired of being portrayed as responsible for racism as a "typical" white person when I have done everything I can to remove race as an issue in my life.   Holding onto these “typical” labels only serve to perpetuate prejudice.  I am now a white male living in a mostly Dominican neighborhood, attend a church composed of an even mix of races led by a South Asian pastor and on Saturdays I play hockey with a group of men and women who are black, white, asian and hispanic.  How typical.

[The upcoming paragraph was originally the last paragraph at tye end of a long, self indulgent story remembering my young adulthood, during which I happened to have some black friends.]

I decided to comment because Jimi Izrael's anger put me off. "I'm a typical white guy and I've got something to say to this typical angry blacak man!", before remembering that the typcal black man has plenty to be angry about and that Jimi had some imnportant things to say to me about race if I was willing to listen. I don't say, do, or think overtly racist things, but I am pretty damn quick to try and leverage those brief friendships and a summer crush on my black, female boss into a free pass for myself on the daily dose of indignity and injustice heaped on too many people of color. Keep dishing up the strong words Jimi Izrael.

[Now back to my originally planned explanation of why I'm better than the typical white guy because I had black friends 15 years ago]  

I'm a 40 year old white guy raised in New England -- no black students in my HS and a whopping 2% of the student body in college, mostly Africans sent here to study before returning home to work in government economics. Moved to DC and got a job in retail where I was the only white employee. Said some REALLY dumb things. Not hateful or hurtful -- more like, um, something a guy who thought that The Cosby Show was about black america would say. Experienced gracious forgiveness. Learned that in many ways, my white friends were a more homogenous group. Asked out a beautiful, educated, funny woman who I spent a lot of time with, got along with really well and also happened to be black (I keep telling myself that, but it was an undeniable fact that her blackness was extremely compelling in comparison to a white woman with the same qualities) and got turned down because she "only dated brothers". Bummer. Worked in Republican politics and heard some of the most God-awful racist things that I had been sheltered from my whole life growing up in rural, lily-white, liberal arts college attending New England. Moved back north and lost touch with my black friends and hence my connection to the "black community".

This whole "typical white person" flap has me thinking of my old friends, who called me "slice" because I was "whiter than a slice of Wonder Bread". Were they mocking me? A little. But there was an affection and familiarity in it that made me feel good about myself and about my association with them.

Wherever you are -- thanks for calling me out!

I'm about to characterize what others have been saying, so I hope to do it right.  I've noticed that almost every time my words get characterized by someone else in this thread, I read it and say "no, that's not it at all".  So I hope to get this right about other points of view.

It's been said that(1) Blacks understand white fear, because you're forced to see contemporary society through the eyes of the dominant group, which is white.  But (2) I exist in my white bubble, unable to see the black point of view.  Assuming I'm characterizing the posts of others accurately, here goes: (2) is undoubtedly true.  But I'm starting to question (1).

First of all, no more statistics.  They're meaningless.  According to the statistics being cited, my quiet, tree-lined mostly-white neighborhood, where my children play outside unsupervised for hours at a time, is really a seething hotbed of dangerous crime and violence.  And the urban black areas I avoid, those places with boarded-up buildings and abandonned cars and big potholes in the road, where people without any apparent jobs hang out on corners all day, where the local citizens complain about failing schools and under-served city resources and , yes, crime(!), where jobs and capital have picked up and moved, leaving empty warehoues and factories, where housing prices are low -- according to your statistics, these places are actually utopian havens of safety, security and serenity.  If that's really what your statistics are telling you, you've gotten something very wrong.

But let's use a real life example and put a more personal face on the statistics: according to what I'm reading in these posts, Barack's "Grams" is safer walking through Compton or the South Bronx than, say, Jesse Jackson, Sr.,  because she's white, and therefore statistically, she's less likely to be preyed on by blacks than Rev. Jackson.  So Jesse Jackson's fear is reasonable, but the old white lady's isn't?  Because criminals will avoid her and go for him?  I can just hear them now: "Leave that old lady alone -- she's white.  Let's go after the big guy -- he's black like us."  Excusing the fact that I couldn't begin to accurately re-create the actual speech patterns of criminals, do you really believe any criminals use that sort of reasoning when picking their targets?

If you do believe criminals think that way, you've closed your mind to reality, and there's nothing I can do to open it.  If you don't, then we've removed statistics from the equation, and we're left with the question: why is Jesse's fear okay but Grams's isn't?  Jesse's may be more acutely painful to him, as Maya pointed out, but the larger question remains: when you're walking alone at night, and you hear footsteps behind you, and you feel an unbidden, momentary rush fear, before you know anything about the person behind you, why does that fear have a non-white face?  And why, when you find out the person is white, are you relieved?

If the answer is typical white racism, then Jesse Jackson is a typical white racist.  But since we all know he isn't, there's something else going on.  If I say what that something is, I'll be called an ignorant racist.  But here goes: Jesse Jackson (and the rest of us, black, white or in between, if we're honest) believe we're more likely to be victims of street crime by non-whites.  And if we all believe it, why do we?  I'm not a believer in collective brainwashing -- I tend to think think we're putting 2 and 2 together and coming up with 4.

If you disagree, that's fine, but please, no stats.  As Will Rogers said, "There are lies, there are damn lies, and then are statistics."

PS  Since I mentioned earlier that my posts have been characterized wrongly by others, I'll give a quick example: SilenceIsGolden (whoese post I otherwise appreciated) cautioned me not to be fearful of black people in restaurants, airports, etc.  C'mon, fear is all about the circumstances, the neighborhood, the time of day or night, the demeanor of the individuals, etc.  Did you really think otherwise?  I'm pretty sure Barack's Grams feels the same way. But then, maybe you are too quick to see white racism where it's not,  and I have to translate for you.

Wrong again, a47percenter :

Of course his grandmother wouldn't be safe in a dangerous area. No one would, white or black. But  there is a big difference between saying an area is crime-ridden and saying that the reason the area is crime ridden is simply becasue balck people live there. During the war in Bosnia, there were plenty of white faces there. It was not a safe place to be for anyone, white or black. Was the area dangerous because there was a war, or because the inhabitants were white? Same goes for any bad neighborhood. Drug dealers, no matter the race, don't care whether you're black or white. They make an area dangerous for anyone who lives there.

"Drug dealers, no matter the race, don't care whether you're black or white. They make an area dangerous for anyone who lives there."

Good point.  And a disproportionate number of those drug dealers have set up shop on the corners of neighborhoods that contain people of mostly light or mostly dark skin color?  Which is it?  Be honest or be disingenuous -- you've got a choice.  And please, no statistics -- just use your own powers of observation, based on your own experience in your own urban milieu.  I trust you.

a47%... I was curious about the city or town that you reside.  I have a chance to travel a bit and ithat info will allow me to understand your viewpoint better.  Certain regions of the country are exposed to different levels of diversity...

Going back to Obama for a sec, there is a huge difference between saying " a typical white person" and "all white people are typical."  The former implies that the average white person is a certain way. Where as the other statement confines all white people to a certain inevitable generality (which is unfair). In my life time I have met many extraordinary people who happen to be white.  However, I've encountered a lot more white people who, although polite, seemed very intimated by me regardless of the environment (airports, restaurants, social events...etc). I think that it's great if you don't fall into that category but, I challenge you to observe your contemporaries.  MOST (not all) of them are afraid of minorities... especially Black people.

Another question that I have for discussion is why some, not all, white people assume that they lost a job b/c of a black person or affirmative action.  We only make up  12% of the US population.  How are we taking all of those jobs from 75% of the population?  Could it be that they lost their jobs to more qualified white people..... or the unthinkable more qualified black people?

Just like most black people need to forgive/understand white peoples for clinging to socioeconomic supremacy (taking advantage of the system),  white people need to understand that black people desire a higher standard of living as well.   We like to go to colleges and universities also.     I did it. My wife did it.  Most of my African-American friends went to college too...believe it or not.

And yes I still wear baggy pants... even though that's starting to go out of style…  lol

What kind of drug dealer are you talking about?  Crystal Meth, ecstasy or illegal prescription drugs… I know you are in your forties but, that is the most popular forms of drug abuse these days.  Crystal Meth is predominating rural America. Ecstasy is abused in suburbia.  Most people get illegal prescription drugs from friends, parents or stealing from relatives.  So the person who is selling drugs in 2008 is …. Probably someone in your family….  Just a guess

I agree with SilenceISGolden. So far, a47percenter hasn't provided any argument of substance. He just leapfrogs from one half-assed assumption to the next, without any logic or common sense.

When a wise man points at the moon, the fool looks at his finger. Obama's speech was groundbreaking but it seems to me that most people miss his point. The power structure is happy to have the masses go on about things that will amplify divisions, so they racialise his candidacy, so that people would ignore his message and vote for or against based on his "race". America is facing serious challenges at this stage in the 21st century an economic collapse looms large in the wake of an ill-advised occupation in Iraq. Race is important, but not at this stage, the bigger issues, the ones that will take a chunk out of our daily bread and butter, are what should have our attention.

Been lurking for a while and soaking up the discussion. 47percenter: I don't hold any particular animus toward you, I just think your reasoning is faulty. I don't think that makes me a demagogue or a professional victim, just someone who disagrees with you.

Contrary to the mildly hysterical noises coming from some quarters (I'm looking at you, Ohio Granny), it seems to me that something being lost in the debate is the idea that maybe it makes more sense to profile people based on behavior and apparent intent, rather than race and style of clothing.

Here's a funny thing about being "typical": human beings are typically very bad at judging things based on statistical probability; instead we tend to judge them based on the prominence of imagined consequences. Psychologists call this "salience bias". It's why many people think flying in airplanes is unsafe (it's waaay safer than driving), or that they're likely to be murdered by strangers or die in terrorist attacks, or that they should play the lottery to get rich. a47percenter, I happen to think we black folks and you white folks are almost identical in this regard; it's just that there are more of you in America than there are of us, so whatever (usually bad) public policy comes out of this flawed thinking has tended to affect us disproportionately.

Now Jesse Jackson, god love him, made a comment about race and crime which people on both sides of this argument have cited as if it were not nonsense, which it is.  Your chances of being victimized by crime have mostly to do which the crime rate of the neighborhood in which you are walking, rather than the race of the person walking behind you -- is that not obvious? There is no reason, for example, why I should feel especially nervous to look behind me and see a black person if I'm walking in the Cambria Heights or Springfield Gardens section of Queens (both relatively well-off neighborhoods with a predominantly black population in NYC).

The whole question of crime in urban areas and black neighborhoods specifically used to be a worrisome one to me, because as a young radical (centuries ago) I was still looking at the thing through the lens of race (just like some racist conservatives do, but with concern rather t