Every time I watch this B.E.T. event I am THOROUGHLY dissapointed. It has so much potential for good, but it always goes awry. So as not to be accused of being a "hater" (when will we let that cliche go?), I'll start with the good:

> The panel format and themes are GOOD. We need more of this type of programming on B.E.T.

> The panel line-ups are have been a GOOD mix of artists, scholars, etc. This one moreso than last.

> The chosen topics thus far have been GOOD; pertinent and relevant to real-life problems facing our youth and communities.

> The set design has been GOOD, thus far.

> This recent choose of moderators -- Cousin Jeff and MC Lyte -- was GOOD.

> Michael Eric Dyson didn't outtalk everyone on the panel, for once, which is GOOD.

> Melisa Harris-Lacewell dropping knowledge, either in print or on TV, is GOOD. Sister is on point.

And now, for the bad:

> The title, Hip-Hop vs. America, is BAD. What are we, Al-Quaeda?

> The moderators need coaching. Allowing panelists to rant, be rude to one another, or dominate the discussion, is BAD. Moderators need to quickly, firmly, yet politely establish their authority, and let it be known that they will not tolerate shouting over the other panelists.

> The moderators need to learn how to follow a point through to some type of resolution, and need to learn when to ask a panelist to respond to another panelists point, or when to ask them to elaborate. Not doing so is a BAD job of moderating. Anyone can stand in front of a paneling of screaming people and wathch them go for it.

> IF B.E.T. IS TOO CHEAP TO ALLOW MORE THAN 20 MINUTES OF BROADCASTING OF A ONE-HOUR SCHEDULED SHOW, THEN THEY MAY AS WELL NOT EVEN PRETEND TO BE ATTEMPTING TO ADDRESS SERIOUS ISSUES. And the pacing of that 20 minutes worth of panel was BAD, BAD, BAD. 3 minutes of panel discussion, then 6 to 9 minutes of commercials? BAD.

> Michael Eric Dyson not talking when his insight could have helped was BAD.

Until someone tells me the format has changed, I don't plan on watching Part II of this series, or any future versions. Waste of time.

Oh, and here is a non-related freebie for anybody to use (Melissa?). The next time some rapper tries to justify his thuggery by smugly stating "Schwarzenneger or Dinero or Pacino don't get criticized for their art," please remind them that:

1. They also don't actually shoot at one another once they are off of the movie set.

2. They don't make it a selling point to convince their fans that they are as "real" as the art they create.

3. They don't come from communities where a dissproportionate interest and investiment is placed in entertainers such that children actually try to do what see those artists do.

Brother Hill,

I couldn't help but make the same assessments that you made.  First, David Banner is an articulate young man in hop hop.  Unfortunately, he (as well as Brother Rivers) came in with an agenda.  An agenda that delivered on two fatal flaws in the black community - the first being the inability to listen to each other (not hear, but listen) and the second to allow faulty reasoning to reign unchallenged.  

And what is the point of having a moderator if you don't moderate?  It would have been nice to hear other point of views other than Bro. Banner.  Many of his points have made by multiple representatives of the hip hop community.  I definitely have major problems with BLAMING hip hop, but I have no problem with holding hip hop and every other entity (family, church, schools, media) accountable for their piece in the upliftment of our people.

First, let's give it to BET.  As much as I rail against MUCH of the content they produce, you have to give them credit for having the dialogue (though having that critical dialogue on a frequent basis even if it's late, during the afternoon, morning, or online - would be more impressive) at all.  Doesn't erase the other images, but it's a start.  Now, the dialogue was not the problem, Brother Hill, the lack of productivity to those kinds of dialogues is the lack of moderation, the lack of new voices AND the lack of respect for the dialogue.    It's not that we didn't want to hear from Bro. Banner and Bro. Rivers - it's that we wanted to hear them in proportion to the rest of the panel.  Not only that - we also probably needed to lend balance to the panel to allow Bro. Banner to not feel like he had to hold up the banner (no pun intended) for hip hop's failings.  That contradiction lies within him and is apparent within much of the black community.  We want to hear R. Kelly's music, but we don't want to support his pedophilia.  Many times, we accept the bad in hopes to enjoy the good.  Bro. Banner wanted to accentuate the good AND convince us that to do so, we need to justify or learn to ignore/mollify/accept the bad.  Having another person to help him articulate that point and to allow others to debate those points would have allowed for a more thorough communication of the debate.  let's also not overlook the fact that much of what I'm asking for could have occurred and was lost through editing.  

Soooo, where does that leave us?  Not sure...but I can say I've yet to find the forum that actually does well to deal with the dynamic nature of the black community.  One that finds us dealing with the grey within our society instead of what we think should be black and white.  When you find that, holla at a playa.

When you wrote, "But why can't they see that a song called 'Wait Till You See my D*ck' only makes it harder", did the pun escape you?

The "Black" panels that I have seen lately have been surprisingly full of intercine battles.  First the Black Enterprise Town Hall meeting, and now the BET joint.  It seems that the "industry" person always becomes defensive very quickly, whch sets the tone for the whole discussion.  It the case of the Black Enterprise panel it was Kim Osorio of BET getting rather testy and saying something to the effect of - "I work for BET INTERACTIVE not the TV channel so don't say sh*t to me about responsbility...that's not MY company.  I works on the comprutahs side"  OK Kim.  Fine.

This time it was Banner nee Lavell Crump, former Southern University Student Government President who caught feelings off the top.  As soon as he admonished the clapping audience with the "don't clap for me, this ain't Oprah" statement, he effectively injected tenseness into the atmosphere.  Unlike Brother Hill, I wasn't impressed with Banner.  I guess his ability to express himself is impressive to some because they might not express that from a rapper.  But since one of my friends went to Southern with him, the whole "watching a dog play Tchaikovsky effect" doesn't work on me.  

As far as the structure of the program as a whole - I agree that Jeff Johnson lost control of the program earrrrrrrrly.  First it was  Banner's "no clapping" statement to kill the crowd participation element . Then it was Lola O seeming to refuse to stop talking all 15 times Jeff asked her to.  

So, um I guess I didn't really get that much out of the program.  I am not sure if the point is to reach a solution or to see who's on which team on the "battlefield for the soul of Black America."   The title Hip Hop VS Black America sets it up as a battle, when I would love to see it be a building session.  Or if they absolutely require the construct of conflict for ratings, set the teams up on separate sides and make it a flat out debate of sorts.  As it stands now, it comes off kinda like "WTF was that?"

As far as the subject at hand, I have always said that I don't blame the artists and I don't blame the girls in the videos.  It's not as if these artists are aliens sent from space to pollute our communities with inappropriate words and visuals.  These artists COME FROM OUR COMMUNITIES.  That needs to be established instead of trying to treat the artists like orphans who are not a part of anyone's personal legacy or lineage.

I always say that a community should concentrate on consolidating strengths rather than focusing on pointing out weaknesses.  I will look forward to see what tonight's program brings.  

People still watch BET?

i agreed with david banner. hip-hop is an easy scapegaot when it's America's sexualized advertising culture that's the real culprit.

They should do a show called CALBE vs. America or THE INTERNET vs. America or HOLLYWOOD  vs. America

What we're telling rappers is that they can only create music that's rated G? That's incredibly unfair. I agree with Lacewell that the real issue is getting more diverse and female voices HEARD in hip-hop and that's the RECORD COMPANIES fault---Why aren't we going after them?

Lola O. was incredibly simplistic in her reasoning and annoying---she was trying to steal the spotlight. i don't know why someone didn't shut her up.

\

and if you ask me artists like Beyonce are responsible for the early sexualizing of our young girls too----but nobody is going after her either

David Banner talked too much; as did Lola O. Ironically, Michael Eric Dyson did not talk enough.  The adversarial frame of the "Hip Hop vs. America" title was more conducive to heat than to light.  We need more light, but ratings' gages (like Neilsens) are more sensitive to heat and, alas, BET is but one of many seekers of ratings.  After all, noble motives seldom pay the bills..

So, BET deserves some credit for the pretense.  At least we got a chance to witness the calming but surprisingly excitable persona of Sis. Laswell, as well as the oddly ascerbic attitude of Rev. Eugene Rivers (a man I once admired for his intellectual sobriety). MC Lyte has a melodious voice.  Cousin Jeff literally exudes committment, but he needs moderating skills. Kevin Powell is still trying to atone for his Vibe articles that exascerbated the Biggie vs.Tupac  rivalry, but his sensitivity to issues of patriarchy is a good thing in hip-hop's testosterone-laden precincts..

Overall, BET gets a C+ for a better than average attempt at gravity. Here's an idea for a more accurate frame:  "Corporate Capitalism vs. Black America".  Any takers?

Brother Hill,

I was really impressed with you and others on the panel. As a critical observer, it appeared that much of the participants on the panel were talking around each other. As a Black graduate student in Sociology, I understand the notion of patriarchy and the power it has on our understanding of the world. However, like David Banner, I am also from Mississippi. For me, as a growing scholar and also an individual that has grown in impoverish conditions, I am often faced with a kind of duality: (1) gaining intellectual knowledge from the academy and (2) staying true to my own life experiences.

I notice that no one mentioned how historical processes have shape our understanding of the social world. Whether that understanding be race, gender, sexuality, etc. I must say that although I disagree with on some issues you address, my brother, I really enjoyed your engagement on the panel. Peace and Be Strong!

Wow.  I am watching part II on dvr and certainly thank you for informing the general public because I watch movies on BET and artist performances, but that's about it.  I remember complainig to BET about 8 or 9 years ago that they needed to cater to the black stay at home mom. I am glad they are stepping up, b/c there are black movies on in the afternoons.  

(cool)

I also should point out that  I see flashes of Floyd Mayweather in Dr. Hill.  

that's a compliment

My impressions:  

a.  The first time the connection was made between the black church, misogyny and hip hop, I said wow, deep.     But when I stepped away from the conversation, by putting the tv on pause or forwarding thru the commercials, that argument didn't stick with me,---if young whites are purchasing most of the hip hop music then the hip hop community needs to answer to that.  "Native Son: would have been a real popular hip hop cd because Bigger fit the white supremacist ideal of the bad black man.   This image is nothing new, it's acceptable but minstrels/gangst rappers/etc  will likely never hear that until their record sales drop with the advent of the next acceptable bad guy.

b.  My son is 1200 miles away from home on the coast with his grandparents.  We live in the midst of nowhere and rap/hip hop music just doesn't make its way to the radio without lots of static.   The rap music that my son hears, something about a soulja boy, is music that his rural white friends listen to!!!!  Hence, it was a wonderful day when my parents said my son could stay over the summer because my parents don't listen to hip hop.  The moral of the story is that music is an  art which is a gift that parents give their  children and I had to quit hip hop with Outkast's last cd because my son called his brother the "N" word.  I listened to that cd in the car all of the time, but after my son said that, that was the end of hip hop. When I think of the gifts of music that my parents gave me, it was not hip hop or rap, it was Teddy Pendergrass, Earth Wind and Fire, the Emotions,  etc, etc.

My final thought is this:  Dr. Hill, you talk faster than I do.  Each semester students comment on how fast I talk and I have to say, you got me beat.  

You say:"I agree with Lacewell that the real issue is getting more diverse and female voices HEARD in hip-hop and that's the RECORD COMPANIES fault---Why aren't we going after them?"

What about those sistahs who sing "Let Me Smell Yo D*ck"?

Wow.  I watched pt I and have a hard time believing that the gray haired minister returned to the panel after that beatdown Dr. Harris gave him.   I have seen him on MSNBC and I can't believe he is so  well   ghet.  

Anywho

I agree with MC Lyte that women do choose silence.  Especially women from the old school and   I think it is in protest to patriarchy and in a refusal to participate in hierarchy.  It would take a million women simultaneously to speak up because marginalization is lonely.  The choice to remain silent may be rooted in the old belief of not casting pearls before swine.   Why speak to or against people whose  ignorance is so severe.  

It is like that scene from “Dances with Wolves” after they kill Costner’s horse.  He says to them, while he is all beat up and pissed off, “You people are not worth speaking to.”  

Perhaps that is how women feel.  Some people are not worth speaking to.  

As always Melissa was brilliant. I don't have a clue where the reverend came from or his training but it was quite clear the almost everything Melissa and Kevin said went way over his head. Instead of gracefully saying he wasn't clear or didn't understand, he continued to argue. It just made him look more ignorant.

Personally...I agreed with a large amount of the points the panel displayed outside of Rev. Rivers...I, personally, wish I could go the rest of my life without ever hearing his voice again...however, due to the lack of a proper moderation I think a lot of the valuable points were missed...I have a lot of input on different aspects so I won't overload people's eyes with my opinion but one of the biggest conflicts I saw was on the topic of

The Media

I believe David Banner should have been allowed to expound on a lot of his points in depth to give more understanding...I know he talked a lot but, ironically, it seemed as though he allowed emotion to take over and not really say what he felt...I myself am a Hip Hop artist...and Hip Hop Is  an art form...I believe the reason why he kept bringing up his own music is because songs like Cadillacs On 22's aren't famous as Like A Pimp or Play...but who's fault is that? As an artist we can only make the music we feel but we can't force the radio/television to play it...so if the consumer is unaware that these "positive" songs even exist it looks like all rap is about is misogyny...it looks like David Banner only makes songs objectifying women when really its catering to a specific aspect of societal life...

Structuring an album is not easy and its because any good artist knows it cannot be 1 sided...after all the world isn't...when I hear a song like "Play" or "Like A Pimp" on his album I know exactly what purpose it serves...its Sexual...it makes me want to go to a Strip Club or something and that's cool its entertainment...imagine going to a club and they were playing "We Are The World" like songs all the time...I guarantee you it would be empty...BUT...an artist structuring a disc picks all types of subject matters to discuss...and good artists can find a way to convey all of these songs to their audience...however artists don't decide what's to be presented to you...radio decides if they want to play a song or not...BET/MTV decides if they want to play your video or not...not the artist...nobody ever says "I hate BET for putting on 20 videos in a row that are sexualesque" or "I hate Clear Channel for playing the same Sexualesque songs 20 times in a row"...what happens is the artist is blamed for making the song in the first place...

That's where the fallacy comes into play though...if I can't make the songs that I want to make...or if I can't be free to make the songs that are in me at that time then why am I in Hip Hop in the first place...we're in a place where one of the only presentations to our society is the sexualesque songs...or the drug usage songs...or the superficial songs...but if that's what came natural to the artist then so be it...music is based on creative license...being free to say what you want to...its not wrong for me to make a song about getting head...its wrong for media outlets to force that song on u with no other option...its wrong for media outlets to say this is what we want you to hear even if you're offended...its wrong for record labels to automatically pick that flavor of song to put out to the world because they see the trend in what media outlets play...

Hip Hop is about self-expression...and the problem is media outlets don't give people those options anymore nor do labels put support behind unique directions...there isn't a melting pot of artistry or styles...most of them lead back to the same subject matter...but you forget that disrespectful songs have always existed...a prime example is Apache's Gangsta ***...when that song came out...some people liked it...most people didn't...and you know what...he's not around anymore...Why? Because the listener had the option...there was a time when you could call your local radio station and request a song a few times and they'd play it...nowadays if you do that you're wasting time and minutes and that's a bigger problem than anything...

You have to remember...everyone has a different opinion and perspective on life and everyone has a choice...everyone is free to believe what they want and free to say what they want...thats the beauty of America...but once you start taking away people's freedom to say what they want where does it stop...where does the rationale end...rappers can stop making songs about "B*tches & H*es" but what if tomorrow society says we don't want to hear songs about "sex" then the next day "we don't wanna hear songs about "love" then the next we don't wanna hear songs about "relationships" where would it stop...does it stop with the group with the biggest voice? Does that make it right? Of course not...that's changing an artist's free will...if you find a song offensive don't listen to it...don't buy it...don't support it...complain about it...write letters to stations...write emails to stations and stand together to try and force outlets not to play it...and in a perfect world...if the public forced outlets to not play those types of songs cause people don't want to hear it...I guarantee you the artists will reduce the emphasis they put on making those songs...thats only a start though...there's a lot to change in society and that's just the tip of the iceberg...

I would write more...but I don't wanna bore you folks...

There was certainly a lot to comment on during that program......so I just want to let Melissa know that this was my first time seeing her live and in the flesh and she did not disappoint.  It almost hurt to watch the other panelist shrink in comparison to her passion, language & intellect.  I may be wrong, but it seemed David Banner had trouble interacting with the wit and determination demonstrated by Melissa.  His inability to "get on her level" reminded me of countless men whose smallness become apparent in the presence of a wisdom spewing woman.  I was proud of Melissa as she went deep and hard on the issues of importance, so many times these programs never get past convoluted dialogue.  Melissa on the other hand, gave us real life solutions and pointed to prescriptive behaviors.

Before I go much further, I’d be remiss if I didn’t shout out Dr. Lacewell-Harris and wish her a speedy

i had a chane to watch this show myself and it just shows why we cant have this type of converstion on TV. Not that i thought the talk wasnt needed but we cant fit something so important into a one hour box.

side note Melissa you are one of our bright stars keep shine-in

There has and will always be bad influences in every community throughout entertainment. Parents must be stronger influences on their children than entertainers. We can't tell our sons to treat women like ladies while we sing every word to Ying Yang songs, we can't tell our daugthers they are ladies and marvel and lust after Lil Kim and all these other images.  Girls pay attention to what their fathers like and what their mothers like and so do young boys and youngmen. Be an example.  We must teach our kids the differenc betweeb entertainment and real life, because our kids especiallly face real challenegs and must be more prepared than their counterparts to face these challenges.

To My wife; Joscelyn,

Melissa and all black women like them.

Thank you fo rallying around us even when we don't deserve it.  I know at times we make it difficult, but if you didn't this nation would not only persecute black men who are genuinely guilty, but they will also keep attacking decent upstanding blackmen.  This nation seeks to persecute us as criminals, but does want to address the poverty issues that cause criminal activity.  We must do it for ourselves together. We must stand up for each other.  I will from now on make it a point to acknowledge the damage, and not lift up or praise artist or my peers who disrespect our women and neither will my sons. We will hold each other accountable for how we treat our community.

To my brothas;

The world is afraid of us and makes its assumption, but we can and are overcoming these obstacles as we always have. We must becareful that we bring our families over these obstacles also. Real men are not ballers, playas, and all these American created stereotypes, we are fathers, husbands and businessmen, let's act like it.

To all lets step forward together with solutions and no finger pointing. I love my people.

Andre Spivey

CEO/Owner

Spivey Progressive Investments L.L.C.

Unlike the inaugural installment of the Hip Hop vs. America series, I found this one to be a bit more engaging for the following reasons:

-- Better panelists. In the initial forum, I was thoroughly disappointed with the lack of public intellectuals and strong representations of Black womanhood.

-- Improved moderation. I'm grateful to BET for ridding itself of Toure and bringing in MC Lyte to help facilitate the discussion. In my humble opinion, Toure did not connect with the audience and any of the panelists in a meaningful way. However, I would like to see the moderators assert their authority to control the conversation with more thought provoking questions (and follow ups) as well as shutting down grandstanders and the brazenly ignorant.

-- Diverse audience. In the initial forum, it was apparent that the mean age of audience members were 21. In this installment, however, it appears that BET had taken more thought into choosing its audience across cohorts. How do I know this? When Banner made some asinine comments, they were not applauded like those of Nelly and T.I.

-- Better female panelists. Ah! After watching a series of televised forums that were ripe with weak representations of Black womanhood, I was delighted to witness a panel with the likes of Kamala Harris, Melissa Harris-Lacewell, Michaela Angela Davis, Moya Bailey and Lola Ogunnaike.

However, there are some downsides to this forum. I hope that BET has made note of them and will use them as teaching points for next time:

-- Advertising the special as an hour, but dedicating half of the time to commerical breaks. These frequent breaks made hard for viewers to follow the conversation thread. In fact, everytime the special returned from a commercial break, the subject had changed.

-- Poor editing. With all the female panelists I refuse to believe that only Melissa Harris-Lacewell and Lola Ogunnaike had something relevant to say (on the co-ed panels). I wanted to hear more from Kamala Harris as well as Allison Samuels. Though I'm a reformed conspiracy theorist, I cannot help but to think that editing out Samuels, Harris, and DJ Beverly Bond while giving space to Eugene Rivers, David Banner, Talib Kweli, Michael Eric Dyson, Kevin Powell, Ali LeRoi and Nelson George was a deliberate attempt to keep Black female viewers from seeing positive reflections of themselves.

-- The fact that the moderators as well as the other panelists didn't check Rivers for giving weight to Powell's opinions, but dismissing and discounting Harris-Lacewell's. Though I'm not sure if those moments were left on the cutting room floor, the absence of those moments reaffirmed the idea that Black women are not worthy of protection or defense.

-- The third episode of the forum was not televised but available on-line. The final panel that really speaks to the problem of the video model (or commonly referred to as "video ho") and Black women's identity issues were framed as peripheral subject and not central to the debate. I got lucky and caught on television Sunday night.

There is room for BET to develop this series. But the fact still remains that it is a parse substitution for BET News and Black Voices -- programs that were cancelled because it wasn't aligned with the organization's goal of providing "quality" entertainment to the Black viewers.  

One more point...

If I hear one more Black man use white fear of Black masculinity as an excuse for their inadequacy, I will vomit.

I am a black woman, married with two young boys, and I totally agreed with David Banner's analysis with respect to the role that women play in all this.  I agree with him, because I was one of the young sistas out here continuously picking the wrong damn men...the thugs, the brothas toting rolls of money big enough to choke an elephant, and never questioning where the money came from (I knew, but I didn't want to know).  The bad assed rides, the shopping sprees...and then one day, it all just got old and tired.  Nothin spectacular happened, I just woke up one morning and wanted something different, stable, secure.  I made a decision to leave the thug niggas and drug dealers alone.  I'ts been a little over 10 years, and I've not regretted the beautiful, strong, stable brotha I chose to spend my life with.  Okay, so he's got a bit of a swagger that I loved in the thugs, but unlike the thugs, he has a steady, legal gig, he's reliable and responsible, a good husband and father to our boys.  Until I met him, I never thought of "good guys" as sexy.  This one is.  I honestly don't know how I ended up with such a mindset...I come from a two parent household, grew up in the suburbs, my parents were great...anyway, I totally undertood Banners coments about women choosing better...

Wow, where have I been? I just stumbled across this forum the other day and Im very impressed, entertained and enlightened by the topics and the comments. You all have brought up very valid points in your comments, and I have seen all of these shows on B.E.T. as well as the town hall show on MSNBC hosted by Chris Hansen. One thing I have noticed but rarely if @ all hear anyone inject into this conversation is fact that the very people that these shows try to reach and or hope to reach just might not be able to comprehend everything that is said on these shows. Im not just talking about poor uneducated black folks, Im talking about poor uneducated to semi educated folks regardless of their race. For example: did any of you see the reactions on the caucasians faces on the panel of the MSNBC town hall? (police chief of D.C. and some other guy)...It was like they couldnt keep up with the UNDERSTANDING of the verbiage used...Same for the HIPHOP vs AMERICA discussion.  I mean, I graduated high school, did 4 yrs in the military, did sum college (in the military) but these shows have me reaching for the dictionary every once-in-awhile. Especially with the likes of Dr. Eric Dyson and there are others. Now this doesnt mean I have a problem with us being at the top of our game intellectually, however what is worse, showing out with my big rims & bling bling, or showing out with my big words when it was actually more fruitful for me to use more layman's terms? Just something to think about Brothers & sisters. Take care and be prosperous!

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