why can't marc assert that ralph nader will make the difference? the issue of nafta for the dems was ambivalent by both candidates. firmly and decisively meaningless. hillary was part and parcel of pushing it through and now pretends distance. obama is on record for lauding it as an example of success when it clearly is not and never has been for the people, any people--but corporations sure do love it. nader would eviscerate corporate globalization. just like there is no "free" lunch, there is no "free" trade; there are always rules and rules are arbitrary--and the rules of nafta and all like-minded agreements endorsed by the WTO and cohorts are rules designed expressly to disenfranchise the people. this disenfranchisement strikes at the very heart of the environmental record. externalizations, they're called--the pollution based corporate economy, in other words, that passes the costs of waste and wanton environmental devastation onto the backs of we who inherit ruin while they financially benefit entirely at our expense and tirelessly work to expand beyond all reason to maximize damage and thus profits. how does this stop when obama is beholden to the likes of zbigniew brzezinski and company? beholden to excelon and the nuclear lobby? how can you possibly expect advisors like these to steer the country toward greener pastures? in the meantime, iraq as a policy is off the table. the dems have no interest in immediately removing troops when it is now indisputable that virtually all conflict is directly linked to the US presence of this violated region. the vast majority of this country wants a healthy and thriving environment. the vast majority of this country's citizenry wants us out right this moment. the vast majority of this country wants a single payer health care system. what makes clinton's or obama's intelligence greater than those whose will they would purport to serve? does anyone seriously think these people are SMARTER than we are? seriously? of course not. they are political hacks, beholden to money and power. in other words, they serve not 300 million, but a mere 300 thousand--the top economic percentile of this country, a percentile utterly convinced that they own the entire planet and whose media declares as much with every facile unstudied word spouted from their newsheads. no, you can't just asert ralph nader will save us. we don't need heroes. we need each other. and ralph nader recognizes exactly this--no corporate cash, only us. whoever of the corporate three win, the people will lose.

wow. I'm not sure where to start. lemme give it a shot. Ralph Nader is passionate about two things: Ralph Nader, and Ralph Nader's opinions. To give the man his props, he's the guy who's responsible for seat-belts and the term "corporate responsibilty". To give the man a dose of reality, he's the guy who's boundless ego gave Dubya Florida in 2000. Yes, he's got some good points. But President?! seriously, how disconnected from objective reality are you?  

Ralph:  The following is for you, Sir.  Since the Corvair, have you actually accomplished anything of importance to anyone?  Are you under the delusion that getting comments in newspapers or on Blogs does anything other than give you name recognition with which you do nothing except, perhaps, make speeches and pick up chicken dinners provided by people who have no relevance other than the little you give them by appearing on their dais?  Ralph.  Go home.  Buy a VCR.  Get a dog.  The Corvair is gone.

"wow." Kordo--you weren't sure where to begin and so you didn't begin at all. ad hominem attacks on nader won't save you. you said literally nothing. all you did was give your humble, uninformed opinion about nader. no more. the tired saw of nader having had anything to do with gore's failure to secure his home state, gore's failure to contest the florida re-count decision, and gore's failure to successfully cover the margin he lost through attracting votes with a compelling campaign simply can not be laid at nader's feet. there were four other parties that covered the margin of loss that day. so why do you hit nader? easy. democratic party failure. in other words, DENIAL. the democrats failed. they failed miserably. can anyone name any of the other contenders? maybe one. but no one blames buchanan. he was right wing. how about any of the others? no. none of the others get mentioned. why not? because they are hardly high profile. nader is high profile. and why is that? nader is high profile because he talks the talk and walks the walk and always has. another ad hominem--what has he done besides FILL IN THE BLANK. pure ignorance won't save you. because you are admittedly ignorant of his efforts to this date is not anyone's fault but your own. Public Citizen, the umbrella group he founded, persistently fights for your rights as citizens and as consumers. their publications inform and create pressure in washington--even if you are willfully ignorant about it. nader's historical efforts are monumental, to be sure--but his work has been consistent for the past four decades. NONE of the candidates even vaguely approaches his advocacy of the people. brainless rhetoric will not save you. feel good rhetoric will not save you. a win from those who have been chosen by the powers that be--the Council on  Foreign Relations, the WTO, the IMF, the Trilateral Commission, in the case of Obama, whose wife herself is associated with these groups--will only result in the continuation, the seamless continuation, of the power and the wealth funneled ever up up and away from the people. these candidates who tow the line will never have your best interests at heart. the upswell of emotion you feel concerning them is understandable--they work constantly to give you that sense of elation; they've honed this marketing skill over the last century. thank edward bernays. thank david rockefeller. thank zbigniew brzezinski. Obama = US hegemony. this is ruinous. no matter how many other groups coerced into supporting this hegemony, we the people will continue to lose as we are thrown into constant conflict to maintain it. nader would break this chain. win or lose, he will continue to fight and he will continue to effect change for the people--this is what he does; this is what Public Citizen does. you simply can not say this about ANY of the other candidates. and that says it all.

yo, MARC!!! i'm open, man.

Melissa,

No, I haven't noticed that the core of the party coalition is "Red", "Black" or "Green". Labor organizations represent progressively fewer workers. They are splintered, the SEIU and AFL-CIO are selling workers out. The rank and file don't feel that the nationals represent their interests, and are not voting as the leadership wants them to. Please stop using European terms like "Red" for labor, my family have been union workers for a few generations, and we KNOW what that's all about. You don't speak for all of us, so quit acting as though you do. Stop lumping all racial minorities under "Black", it takes a lot for granted, and is disrespectful. Greens weren't the first environmentalists, and if you educate yourself the Green Party are a bunch of hypocrites. Read how German Green politicians have increased poverty and racism in their country. They are no different than Bush. In the US they try to con poor people. They go into neighborhoods and play activist. They are poverty pimps. And no, environmental issues do not get short shrift. We have heard almost nothing but green this and green that for years. I care about the environment, but not to the exclusion of everything else.

From what I see and hear, it's regular people who are giving to the democratic party, but they aren't listening to us. Do not even talk to me about "activists", anti-war advocates, labor or environmentalists. The single issue types are only trying to restrict the issues the campaigns discuss to their pet issues. They want to smother all discussions of poverty and the economy.

I don't like how the far left still insist on thinking that McCain Feingold was a good thing, when it pushed democratic leaders to have to rely on corporate contributions to fund campaigns. That law silenced labor unions, environmental, civil rights and other groups from being able to compete with wealthy interests. Of course, the far left think that HoHo Dean was a progressive democrat too. I am sick of leftist extremists, they are so out of touch with reality that they are irrelevant.

I don't view only discussing illlegal aliens as being a "fair hearing". How can you even make such a claim, do you even get it? I don't feel that the five minutes of time that NAFTA got as fair either. None of them spoke about Mexico being given American's jobs, and then not holding up their end of the bargain. They encourage their people to come here to avoid having to raise wages and enact needed reforms, like they promised to do. Then the American citizens whose jobs were taken, are blamed and told they can't have any jobs, because the NAFTA the Mexican government helped right, is blamed on poor Americans. Just what kind of glass ceiling do you live above that you can be blind to these facts?

Have you ever been a week away from being homeless, Melissa? Do you know what that does to people, or their kids? The stress that puts on you? Do you know what it is like to see your kids go hungry, to know that your family is suffering? Maybe you have it so easy that you think that the only thing that matters is the environment, but all that means is you don't care about humanity, only your pet single issues.

How about this. If you want real environmental action then control your own carbon footprint. Get rid of your car and take the bus, ride a bike or walk. Stop taking trips on planes, it's wasteful. Don't buy a computer, consider the heavy metals and contaminates they cause. Stop buying imported anything, no coffee, no tea, and only buy locally. Support local farmers and producers. Demand an end to globalization, think about the carbon emitted by all those ships and trucks needed to deliver foreign made products. Stop buying cds and dvds, stop going to movies too. Film makers waste carbon by flying actors and crew all over the world to make a two hour film, it's wasteful. Do all those things and then tell us that all the other issues and innocent people can be sacrificed for your selfish demands.

panopticon7, the general public is ignorant of the impact Nader has on things they take for granted.  Just like the public is ignorant to the impact labor has on their concept of a job.  That's because the mainstream corporate media has done a very good Orwellian job of brainwashing.

I think you hit the nail on the head.  Nader isn't responsible for Bush being in the White House.  Karl Rove is.  For those scanning these comments, read Grag Palast's Armed Madhouse for a detailed report on how the Republicans' caging list and voter suppression cost Kerry the race - more than his lame campaign did.  Read Palalst's detailed report on how the vote was stolen in Florida for a similar report on the 2000 election.

Bottom-line fellow citizens and voters: the Presidency was stolen.  Not by Nader but by the Republican machine.

Saying Nader's candidacy was the problem is a distraction that Karl Rove welcomes.

Green issues have been given the short shrift, nevertheless.  That's because we get so easily distracted by soundbite issues like a Farrakhan repudiation or crying in public the night before a primary.

Nader doesn't succumb to this kind of dumbing down.  Neither did Kucinich.

It's a shame we have to hold our noses while voting for a President again.

I was reading Jenny's post and understand that her concerns and even her anger.  However, the reality is that we be concern about the environment particularly in place such as Harlem and the South Bronx where rates of asthma and other respiratory problems are high among African-American children.  Let also discuss the condition of urban parks where it is not safe for people to walk because of crime and pollution.  Imagine of these community had clean and safe parks where children can exercise and play.  It would mean that could finally go outside and not sit in the house playing video games and getting fatter.  Suppose if there were community gardens where they can grow produce and sell it locally giving the people within these community a choice in eating healthier and reduce obesity within the black and latino communities.  Buying locally can be cheaper and economically feasible, it also means not having to get into your car driving miles outside the community and buying the things you need.

Environment affects the black community just as much other communities in the country, and Melissa does bring up a point for asking the question of the environment being politically relevant.  The environment can create more jobs particularly in the black community, and I do not think many people will be driving their automobiles when gas is expected to reach $4.00 a gallon by spring this year.  I live in a neighborhood where there are empty lots that could be used for gardens and even playgrounds, and I do not believe that you are not against having a cleaner environment that enables you to walk down the street, and even ride a bike.  Seeing a cleaner and safer environment would improve the mood of many people, and African-American should understand the importance and the affects of seeing a street without any paper or soda cans on the streets.

deangelo starnes,

The general public is NOT ignorant of the impact Nader has had on things. Many of us are aware of the good things Nader's organizations have done. You just want us to shut off our thinking processes when it comes to your agenda, which is elitist and corrupt. Yes I said that. Elitist because Nader's candidacy was based on imposing that cold shower he KNEW a Bush presidency would rain down upon the powerless. I remember 2000, and being shocked when he publically stated that desire of his. He advocated a scorched earth agenda, and the untold millions of poor Americans will never achieved the potential they had to lift themselves up out of poverty, ever achieve the education they deserved that their parents paid for in taxes, blood, sweat and tears. He knew Bush would push us into a war, and how many of our young people have been offered up as a sacrifice to that? Do you even care? Obviously not, there is no draft and you aren't at risk. If your parents were affluent enough to get you in college, you are protected and above a glass ceiling that too many young men and women do not share in.

The mainstream corporate media promoted Nader, I remember MSNBC, owned by NBC, owned by GE hired Phil Donahue and Jeff Cohen of the very unfair FAIR to work on the network to rattle the bones for Nader. When they had done enough damage (attacking Gore, ignoring Bush's record as governor of Texas and his public statements) they were let go and they cried foul then. The same mainstream corporate media presented Gore as a joke, while giving Bush a pass. You know that. Some in the media did report Nader's lies. An environmental magazine caught him in a lie attacking John F. Kennedy jr, who had written about Nader admitting that if he had to choose he would vote for Bush over Gore. The reporter had been at a fundraiser and recorded Nader saying just that. Speaking of that, Nader crawled back underground when Bush called for his war in Iraq. Where was your stinking candidate then, deangelo?

Saint Ralph is on the record as saying that issues of race and poverty are "gonadal" issues. He refuses to explain that disrespect, how about you step up and address that for us? Do you consider them "gonadal" issues? After the 2000 election, Nader was invited to a few big republican events, at one he was seen to be having a good time with Florida secretary of state Katherine Harris.

As to Nader helping Bush, it's an estabished fact that Nader got over 100,000 votes in Florida, many of those voters would have voted for Gore if Nader hadn't run. Gore lost the Florida vote count by a bit over 500 votes. I'm sure you have some little excuse as to how that did not matter, or to blame Gore?

I also remember Nader attacking Gore for owning some stock in a company called Occidental Oil, but Gore didn't. Nader did though. Nader owned a quarter million dollars worth of Occidental Oil stock at the time. I guess that's why he refused to make a full financial disclosure. He said he didn't need to because there were a lot of zeros in it. Lots of zeros in millions, deangelo, and Nader owned more than 8 million in investments in 2000. In corporations like Halliburton, Raytheon, Dutch Shell (oil company raping the Niger Delta), Exxon Mobil and many other companies he pretends to not like. The information is out there on the internet for anyone who cares to look it up. It seems to me that Nader has gotten even richer from helping Bush.

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