I think that it is important to note the connection of blacks with the Christian church. The church as always formed the basis of our sense of community and it is a well known fact that Christianity and homosexuality and have never been fast friends.  To make matters worse the GLBTQI community as steadfastly has a white face on it.  Just as feminism has routinely dealt with the issues of white women the GBLTQI has preferenced the issues of whties thus causing blacks to see this as a white thing.

There was no outreach to black churches, community centers as it was assumed we just vote no. This was a wrong assumption on their part clearly.  You cannot ignore us and then expect us to do your bidding on command.

Originally, I was VERY upset with minorities (specifically blacks and hispanics) for voting overwhelmingly in favor of Prop. 8.  I was ashamed that members of my own family voted for it, but my feelings have changed, somewhat, after speaking to people.  I found that people did not fully understand WHY gay marriage is a civil rights issue.  They think it's a religious question instead of looking into exactly WHAT rights and privileges gays are denied by not being able to be legally married.  Thus, I'm (to some degree) shifting the blame to the anti-prop-8 lobby for largely ignoring minority communities and failing to educate those communities properly.  Without proper education, folks were left to their stereotypes and unfounded fears that were preyed upon by the Pro-Prop 8 lobby.  If folks understood what, exactly, is at stake (i.e. certain tax benefits, insurance, estate-planning options, etc...), they might certainly feel differently.  Black folks don't want to see people denied civil rights, but to get their vote, you've got to make sure they understand why and how civil rights are at issue in the gay marriage debate.  

I'm still upset that some blacks and hispanics are so discriminatory, and the intolerance in the black community, specifically, really grates on me, but in terms of getting the initiative denied, the lobby made some large mistakes.  What I'd like to see happen is for those of us in favor of gay marriage reset, educate folks, and turn this mess around in 2010. YES WE CAN!

I have to agree with womanist musings. The Black church has always been socially conservative (yes, even during the sixties -- remember it was a single teenage pregnant girl who got arrested first and the NAACP decided not to use her as the symbol of the Civil Rights movement).

and like womanist musings pointed out, the face of the GLBT community is white. When a black gay man or woman is beaten, where is the outrage? When a white gay man or woman is beaten, all kinds of folks come out of the woodwork...

I disagree that gay marriageis a civil rights issue, and I am very, very tired of gay people aligning themselves with the civil rights movement.  If any of you think someone's sexual orientation will ever rise to the level of a right implicitly guaranteed by the Constitution, keep dreaming.  

Actually, blessinggirl, gay rights ARE guaranteed under the constitution.  Have you ever heard of the Equal protection clause under the 14th amendment?  It is ensures (generally) that the laws apply equally to all men and women, including gays.  Do you really think that doesn't include the protection of tax laws, for example? (that offer certain privileges to married couples - privileges to which gays are not entitled as a function of gay marriage bans).  

Furthermore, it is a mistake to conflate civil rights with human rights.  Largely, the battles of African-Americans, historically have been, first human rights issues, then, civil rights.  Just because our struggle was different DOES NOT MEAN THAT ANY OF US SHOULD SEEK TO DENY ANY RIGHTS TO THE GAY COMMUNITY.  That's just ignorant.  

Gay marriage is a civil rights issue just as interracial marrage was.  Any citizen of the country should benefit fully from our laws.  To blame African Americans for the failure of this proposition, however, is an excuse.  Imagine if we had blamed the gay community for the racism we have encounter and their refusal to support us.  We did the hard work to achieve a measure a justice.  So too must the gay community...it is hard and sometimes desparing work...part of that work is reaching out to hte black community.  We know that almost every black family has someone who is gay and almost of us would not reject a family member who is. They will find support from our community but they make it difficult by bullying and blaming us.

I was not at all surprised, though I was firmly no on 8 I really felt that the campaign did a terrible job getting the vote out and convincing people. I do understand that it takes balls as a white person to tell black voters that the plight of gays is like what they went through. The thing that is really offensive now is the news and now the public saying it was mostly blacks who voted for prop 8, not true at all, while blacks mostly voted for prop 8 they are not responsible for its passing. Sure if more than half of them had voted no then the vote would have turned but the same can be said for whites, why didn't they vote more for no?

70% of black voters voted for the proposition and only 52% of all voters voted to pass the proposition.  while i do believe that it was the black vote that made the difference -- that is, after all, what happened when you cut the fat off of it.  but i also acknowledge and wish that more of the "other" voters had voted against it.  to blessinggirl: at this point in the struggle, gays are not looking for sexual orientation to be implicitly written in and protected by the constitution, we are just looking for DISCRIMINATION to NOT be written into it, which is what has happened with prop 8 passing -- folks, the precedent has been set -- the rights that most have been enjoying can now be taken away with a simple majority vote.  that is appalling.

my wife was a separation of religion-state lobbyist in washington, dc for many years (she is a person of faith, by the way) and worked closely on defeating the federal marriage amendment.  to go with the theme of this story, black voters knew then what was right and what was wrong and lobbied their senators and representatives to vote against it, thus heavily influencing the vote.  why?  because the lobbyists did an outstanding job of reaching out to the faith community at large, including of course the black churches, clergy of all faiths came together on coalitions to defeat the amendment.  the citizens/congregants worked with the clergy who worked with the lobbyists.  it was beautiful.  and the no on prop 8 campaign failed miserably in understanding the importance of reaching out to people of faith.

So blacks would have voted against Prop 8 if the opposition had just come to their churches and spoken to them?  That wouldn't have changed any minds.  The main factor in the passage of Prop 8 was the influence of organized religion and its biblically inspired intolerance.  Financial support for the Prop 8 campaign was provided by the Mormon Church.  The people that voted for it had connections to organized religion, just blaming black people doesn't tell the whole story.  

African-American Rights are defenitely civil rights!  However Same-Sex marriage is not.  I'm sorry, but it is not fair to put them in the same catergory.  People of faith, we can agree, people regardless of color are all to be treated the same.  WE MUST emphasize that the bible is against same sex unions.  I don't discriminate against gays, I have friends who are.  However, traditional values should not be stomped on.  The most important CIVIL RIGHTS issue of OUR day should be abortion.  We must better educate our children about it, and find ways to lower the increasing number of abortions and teenage pregnancies.  Thanks for reading this, and keep it in mind.

As of Jan. 2005, California Assembly Bill 205 extends ALL rights of married couples to registered domestic partners in this state. Including those regarding children, illness of partners in hospitals, etc, ALL rights. So if a gay couple registers as domestic partners, they are seen under the law no differntly than a married couple in this state for rights of property, California State Taxes,  parenting, etc. It even recognizes those domestic partnerships formed in jurisdictions outside of California, even if they are not called specifically domestic partnerships, but are formed as such.

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/03-04/bill/asm/ab_0201-0250/ab_205_bill_20030922_chaptered.html

It seems to me that the fight should go federal so that they can get their FULL tax benefits as married couples. I agree that the financial and protective benefits of marriage should be extended but why call it marriage when domestic partnerships already are used to describe these unions. If you can get the same right as California already has, what is the new issue. Ceremonies are ceremonies and you are welcome to call it whatever you want. But the actual legally binding document can be different. Is there something I'm missing here?

I have heard that this issue was voted twice to be banned.  My question is on the first time that this was brought forwarded who was the majority that voted the ban?  As far as the second that was voted on Nov 4, I feel that this proposition 8 wasn't worded property for the black/hispian that caused them to banned it.  Especially,  where there are so many blacks who are gay.  I also heard that there was a robo call with Obama voice that he agreed with the proposition 8 that result for blacks to banned it....Not for sure its true...

I am wondering if Barrack was running for the high office would we have known if it would have shown that the blacks/hispians was the caused for this banned.  I don't think so.  There were two other states that had the same issue and it wasn't shown what race caused this banned.

why do white (gov.)  people put their big noses in other peoples business

men and women have a choice of who they sleep with

white men have changed the const. how many times? against people who are different.

that's why obama is pres. no white people in gov. oh. change the white house black

i think that's why other countries hate u/s no majority just minority....

well maybe a little

gone too far,  just 2 trivial

people need to be equal

What you are missing nikirene, is the point of being married.  Why does ANYONE get married?  Whatever those reasons are that heterosexual people get married and not get into domestic partnerships are the same reasons why same sex couples want to get married.  If it is truly no big deal, and all the marriage rights are extended to domestic partnerships, then why vote "yes" to go back and AMEND the constitution to state that marriage is between a man and a woman?  If it is no big deal, then let gay people get married if that is what they want to do.  If it is no big deal, then why deny that right to someone else to whom it is a VERY BIG DEAL?  The big deal is the slap in the face to the two people who are in love, pay state taxes, and happen to be of the same sex.  Maybe you would feel the big deal if you were constitutionally denied the rights afforded to others.  

I live in Missouri and worked with this amendment in 2004.  I initially felt the same way Ms. Cannick expressed in her article.  I felt that there were other issues that took priority in the Black community, and that whites needed to push for those rights in our community.  I felt that same sex marriage was a largely white issue, and I frankly wasn't enthusiastic about it.  Until the amendment passed overwhelmingly.  The constitution already did not support same-sex marriage.  To go and add an amendment which specifically defined marriage between a man and a woman was insult to injury.  Like I was vermin and a second class citizen, especially when people state that I should be happy with what I have.  Gee thanks!  It reminds me of the talk show host that recently said that Blacks should have been happy with slavery, since they were getting free room and board...

Anyway, after that amendment passed, I moved to a more conservative part of Missouri, and really experienced how people felt about LGBT rights.  As an obvious African American woman, I rarely receive any racist treatment, or heard racist remarks.  People are at least aware, or try to be somewhat PC.  If anything else, they know they can receive major repercussions for their actions.  But as a *** who is not obvious, I constantly hear and receive negative treatment regarding gays and lesbians.  I can say that I receive far more degrading treatment as a *** than I do as a Black woman.

I realize that this country still has far to go regarding its treatment of African Americans.  But at least they can marry.  They don't have to jump the broom anymore.  In fact they can marry in some non-religious ceremony after knowing each other 10 minutes (and if religion is such a factor in marriage, then why does this occur?).   I agree that proper outreach needs to be done in the Black community.  But at least I'm not being told that I'm "unnatural" and an "abomination under God" because I'm Black.  I'm not in danger of being fired or losing my housing because I'm black.  These rights are protected.  But as a ***, I am no where near protected. People need to realize when using the Bible, that it was the same reference to the Bible that justified slavery and prohibited interracial marriage.  I see we've moved past that...

Wake up America! The very thing we as Americans don't want to talk about, among other things is religion. Well, my friends the chickens are coming home to roost. Yes pastor Wright was right; he just picked the wrong platform to express what he had to say.

No one wants to even think of the possibilty that almighty God is still on the throne and judging this country (as well as others) for the sins of their own behaviors and their children's children. Just look around you people. Like it or not, agree with it or not, the black community for the most part has always been rooted in the Word of God which defines homosexuality as a blatant sin!!!

It is an offense against the Lord as wll as lying, defrauding, etc., but when men and women make it a point to equate this with the likes of the 1960's civil rights campaign it becomes what it is;

People seeking to legitalize their behavior by associating it with something that was a national sickness, which God and He alone brought to the forefront. Not so with homosexuality. Anyone who reads the history of ancient Rome, Greece and some others have to admit that God destroyed them for the refusal to stop their depictable life styles.

No one wants to even discuss this unless they offend some one who is gay.. But God loves the gay as well as everyone else, but He hates the sin. Friends, this is a new world in which we live and greed, immorality and many other anti Christian (Bible Christians) behaviors will be dealt with by the Word of God. We are going to learn to pray, not for God to wink at some thing we hold dear as we pick and choose our life style immorality, but for a closer walk in God. THe God of the universe.

I am proud that the black community did not back this movement. If we don't have enough backbone to stand up for what is Godly, the God will do it for us.      

Bishopric - the one consolation anyone can derive from your diatribe is that your ignorance shines through!  Legitalize?  Depictable?  Pick up a dictionary, for goodness sake.  The mere fact that you suggest that God punishes civilizations because some of his children are different than the rest is so ignorant that it defies description.  What would your reaction be if some fool came up to you and suggested that God allowed the enslavement of Africans as punishment for the immoral behavior of those people in their homelands, or that generations of Blacks in the United States were allowed to remain in slavery as further punishment for immoral acts?  You might well remember God's admonition to all of us:  "Judge not, lest ye be judged."

Well, they sure as hell didn't help. What's so frustrating is that the Mormon church financed this campaign big-time, and let's not be confused about the Mormon church and anybody lacking the necessary blue eyes.

Obviously lots of white folks voted for it, too, especially in the big valleys in the middle of the state. But marriage is a civil right, make no mistake about it, and we need to do some real educating here. People who attend churches interpreting the (only 2) mentions of homosexuality as opposition to homosexuality needn't be forced to marry gays--that's First Amendment territory. Neither should churches supporting all unions be constrained from doing so. And there is always the good old Justice of the Peace to be made available.

The success of Prop 8 is sad, sad, sad. There are so many things that go with marriage in the way of access to rights, and none more important than the right of the marriage partner to advocate for the beloved in life and death situations, child care situations, and so on.

It's so funny that the LDS Church, which with its offshoots in the wilds of Utah, AZ, TX etc. has wreaked such havoc on its renegade members should be so destructive in its treatment of gays.

I think it is important to note that just because we accept people for the color of their skin, which is actually something that the Bible teaches us to do, does not mean we should let two people of the same sex get married, which the Bible vividly prohibits. Yes, I understand this is a liberal website. Yes, I understand that many of you do not see any difference between freeing slaves and allowing gay marraige. No, I do not understand why. How many of you who have posted go to church? Do you believe what the Bible teaches you? It states in plain print that you should love thy neighbor. It also states in plain print that he who lays with another man shall die and she who lays with he who lays with another man shall die as well. You don't have to believe in God or the Bible. That is your right as a citizen of this country, but this country was founded on the principals of the Bible and the teachings of Jesus and to confuse loving thy fellow man with telling him it's o.k. for him to marry another man is not what this country is supposed to be about. I too am a citizen of this country and I am not alone in my beliefs. In fact, most people in this country claim to be christians yet we turn away from our beliefs every day in order to allow people to do things that go against God and his teachings. This is the ultimate foolishness people. If you believe in God then maybe you should read your Bible sometime and then maybe you could see that allowing the sanctity of marraige to be corrupted by those who hate you for your beliefs and allowing your country to be degraded by filth is not the right thing in the eyes of the Lord. No, I am not a perfect person. No, I do not expect you to believe as i believe, but that is a two way street. I for one am sick of watching as it is slowly turned into a one way street. Continue to turn your backs on your creator and watch as our economy goes further down the tubes and our land is ravished by floods earthquakes and droughts. I am but a lonely voice, but with an ounce of courage from those who would stand up and fight for our country to be the great and blessed place it once was we can turn things around. I believe Obama has been sent to us to help us recover from a lot of our troubles, but it will take the people of this country to undo a lot of the wrong that we have brought on ourselves by allowing corrupted souls to make the rules for the ones who would do what we are put here to do. Be proud that this country has moved out of the times when we were not all treated equal because of the color of our skin because that was wrong...WRONG! But to take it from that to "lets encourage people to turn away from God and be wicked" is just pure stupidity. I could write for days on this subject but i doubt it would do any more good than what i have already written. You either believe or you don't. The choice is yours. But remember this, oh children of the Lord. You will be held accountable for the things you allow to happen. You will be asked "why did you not stand up and speak on my behalf". You will answer to the one who put you here to "go forth and multiply", not "go forth and die out because you decided to no longer follow the laws of nature".

I know there is someone who will read my post and say "blessed land it once was? what about the slavery??" Never has there been a time on this earth that humans didn't corrupt what God intends for them. There has always been a blemish on the record no matter what era you go back to. That is not Gods fault, it is mans fault. To try to discredit the Bible based on what humans do is just another sad excuse for the wicked to do what they want. It is very sad that just because people try to follow what the Lord taught us they are called "closed minded", there is a difference between being closed minded and having faith in God and believing what he taught us was right and wrong. Until we all understand that then nothing is going to get better in this country. This country became the most powerful and rich nation on the face of the earth because we followed Gods guidelines that he set out for us. No, we did not follow them all. No nation has ever done that, and if we don't start doing it ourselves then no nation ever will. To me, closed minded are the ones that refuse to see the path we are supposed to follow in order to fulfill their own agenda. Think about this for just a minute. How many gay people were there in this country 100 years ago? How many are there today? Now do you think the explosion of gay people happened because these people were born that way? If that were the case then there would have been roughly the same number of gay people 100 years ago wouldn't there? The reason there are so many gay people in this country today is because we now tell each other that it is O.K to be gay. We discuss this issue in public, on television, in front of our children. These children hear of such things at an increasingly earlier age and it is impressed on their minds that this is a viable choice for their lives. They are becoming gay because they already think they might be gay before they even fully understand what it means to be gay. They are not taught what the Bible says about being gay because they aren't even allowed to take their Bible to school and read it at recess, much less talk about it with their friends. And to make laws that say it is legal for man to marry man and woman to marry woman will only compound this problem. Force-feeding gay rights down childrens throats is not the answer. Having what may otherwise be normal children who may someday grow up to have kids of their own watch gay parades and watch as their friends turn gay and feeling pressure that they should accept the gay lifestyle and maybe even become a part of it is not a productive way to ensure this country will survive. For once in your lives stop trying to make every single idea or belief out to be equal to all others. It's time for that to end. Race is an issue that needs to be solved once and for all but to put homosexuality on the same level as that, or even above that as it sometimes seems these days is utter buffoonery. Gay people, if you want to live your lives that way then you should do it within the boundaries that are set forth for it. Do it in your own house away from the eyes of impressionable children. It is no different than a drug addict who is smoking crack next to a school. If the drug addict wants to be a drug addict then he should keep it behind closed doors where children won't be subjected to it because it is wrong. The difference being the drug addict goes to jail. The homosexual gets a parade.

I may be naive, but I think if the bill were worded so that it said:  Gay couples should be able to adopt and foster care, then the outcome may have been different; especially in California.

If the bill outright said:  Gay folks can't adopt, then it may have captured black folks' attention.  Particularly black folks who don't pay attention to politics; not to mention those who did not have the ability to process exactly what it is they were reading.

I had a loud argument with a black man about that bill.  He swore up and down that the bill was about adoption, not gay marriage.  I told him that inherent in the bill is the FACT that gay marriage is not legal, etc.......

I said that approval of Prop 8 furthermore means that more and more black children are going to sit in foster care and adoptive homes.

I think the bill's language was so mainstream and so  typical that it didn't give many voters reason to process or think about exactly what it was the bill was prohibiting.  

I bet anything that the average person who can read thought that bill meant that two heterosexual unmarried couples couldn't take in foster kids.  I venture to say the homosexual community did not cross the minds of those who were not previously aware of the bill's intention.

At the end of the day, this ban, especially in my state, hurts black children more because they are the majority in foster care and waiting for adoption.

I value the Bible, but it should not be the determining factor in this debate.

We are not a theocracy. We must remember to guard against  "the tyranny of the majority" when it comes to issues of equal rights.

I read your blog and I 'get it' with some of what you wrote. But, it doesn't explain why there seems to be almost as many black gays as there are white gays.

Shame on everyone who voted for Constitutional bigotry, regardless of his or her race.  Statutes banning same-sex marriage may be repealed when the homophobic dinosaurs who back them are extinct -- a day which is very rapidly approaching.  But Constitutional amendments are much harder to reverse.  The cold, dead hand of these morons will continue to rest heavy upon the shoulder of the rest of us for years to come.

It will take another Virginia v. Loving to rectify this loathsome last gasp of the haters.

I think it is important to take a close look at the numbers. people are looking at only the voting percentage points but they fail to look at the whole picture. According to the 2006 ACS Estimates, California's population is:

   * 58.9% White American

   * 35.9% are Hispanic or Latino (of any race)[18]

   * 12.3% Asian American

   * 6.2% Black or African American

   * 3.3% mixed

   * 0.7% American Indian

The vote breakdown  went as follows

   *  White American   yes - 51% / no - 49%

   *  Hispanic               yes - 47% / no - 53%

   *  Asian American    yes - 51% / no - 49%

   *  African American  yes   70% /  no- 30%

If African americans would have voted the same way as whites the prop still would have passed anyway.

I don't think that it is fair in this instance to blame any one voting group. Black people were not the ones that got the funds together to start this initiative in the first place. I think that more work could have been done by prop 8 opponents to inform all communities of the the facts. I remember seeing the commercials for prop 8 on constant rotation this year. They were misleading and preyed upon peoples fears and hates. I barely saw ads against the prop.

I think it is important to take a close look at the numbers. people are looking at only the voting percentage points but they fail to look at the whole picture. According to the 2006 ACS Estimates, California's population is:

   * 58.9% White American

   * 35.9% are Hispanic or Latino (of any race)[18]

   * 12.3% Asian American

   * 6.2% Black or African American

   * 3.3% mixed

   * 0.7% American Indian

The vote breakdown  went as follows

   *  White American   yes - 51% / no - 49%

   *  Hispanic               yes - 47% / no - 53%

   *  Asian American    yes - 51% / no - 49%

   *  African American  yes   70% /  no- 30%

If African americans would have voted the same way as whites the prop still would have passed anyway.

I don't think that it is fair in this instance to blame any one voting group. Black people were not the ones that got the funds together to start this initiative in the first place. I think that more work could have been done by prop 8 opponents to inform all communities of the the facts. I remember seeing the commercials for prop 8 on constant rotation this year. They were misleading and preyed upon peoples fears and hates. I barely saw ads against the prop.

In response to  dsh22793, gay rights is not a civil rights issue; it is a behavior issue.  I can't be prayed, delivered or counseled out of my blackness into a flat-butt, straight-haired, thin-lipped, pale-skinned life.  Yet those exist that claim and execute a lifestyle that is completely heterosexual lifestyle. Last time I checked, drug dealers didn't get equal protection under our merchandising laws.  Prostitutes don't get equal protection under the pornography industry laws.  These are activities that if ceased would not put these participants in violation of the law.  Change the behavior, eliminate the problem.  represent blessinggirl.

I think I'm glad you're writing on the issue.

Epifanee, California Assembly Bill 205 was written to address the issue of discrimination  specifically of gays and lesbians. I voted No on 8 but I also know that if a gay person wants the rights afforded in marriage, there is a way for you to have them. Simply register your domestic partnership with the State.

Its To Much Going On Among Our Culture, As Blacks/Nubians? No Im Not For This Gay Movement }Or Anything Yall Keep Trying To Force, And You Can Call It What You Want. Its A Reason Your Having Such A Hard Time, And Its Not Because Im Ignorant. Its Because We As Strong Black Men Are Basicaly Sick Of These Socalled ***}! Wanna Be Like Men, Trying To Be Somthing Your Not. As A Man And Father I Will Not Teach My Children Hate, But I Will Teach Them The TRUTH}A Womans Place And A Mans Place. Truth Be Told The GFLTQ}DISCRIMENATES! Just As Well Because They Dont Want To Be With The Opisit Sex? So Should We Protest Againts GAY HYPOCRYTS}. DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY TIMES I SEE PRETTY, NUBIAN WOMAN AND BECAUSE THEIR SO CALLED GAY! THEY ACT FUNNY TOWARDS US AS MEN OR EVEN BLACK MEN FOR THAT FACT.  Thats Why Theirs So Many Problems On A Political And Social Level..AND THATS JUST PART OF THE DAMMMM TRUTH!!

I worked on the no on eight campaign.  The reason we didn't come out to any of the community's was becuase we had these people who were supposedly "pros" at campaigning and they said not to.  Sorry about us not coming out to many, we mainly called people. I would also like to disagree on the gays only defending white gays. That is NOT true.  My proof; Last year on the day of silence it was in honor of a young black boy who was shot for being gay.   To honor him the entire day I did not speak, nor did others who were honoring him. Got threatened for suspension, but I did it. ^^  This was across the U.S. Skin color doesn't matter.

WHEN YOU POINT YOUR FINGER AT SOMEONE, YOU HAVE THREE POINTING BACK AT YOURSELF, THOSE OF YOU THAT NAME CALL AND ACCUSE OF BIGOTRY, HATRED, ETC.

I APPRECIATE,  HONOR, AND RESPECT ALL GODLY PEOPLE, BLACK AND WHITE, WHO STAND FOR THE TRUTH OF SCRIPTURE. GOD'S CREATION WAS TO REPRODUCE AFTER ITS OWN KIND, BUT JUST AS HYBRID SEEDS DO NOT GERMINATE, AND MULES, (CROSS BETWEEN HORSE AND DONKEY) ARE STERILE, NEITHER DO HOMOSEXUALS REPRODUCE. THAT IS NOT TO SAY THAT EVERY PERSON NEEDS TO REPRODUCE THEMSELVES. I HAVE TO SAY THIS TO THE LIE THAT HOMOSEXUALITY IS A CIVIL  "RIGHTS"  ISSUE, SO CALLED: FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO HAVE EITHER PROPAGATED THIS LIE, OR WHO HAVE BOUGHT THIS LIE THAT  ATTACHES HOMOSEXUAL BEHAVIOR TO CIVIL RIGHTS, AS IN  "BLACKS, JEWS, WOMEN AND HOMOSEXUALS", THAT IS VERY HATEFUL AND VERY OFFENSIVE, AS IT IS NOT A SIN TO BE A BLACK, JEW, OR WOMAN! AND IF THAT IS WHAT YOU IDENTIFY WITH AS A BLACK, JEW OR WOMAN,THEN YOU SERIOUSLY NEED ALL THE HELP YOU CAN GET, BECAUSE YOU, (GENERIC YOU) REAP WHAT YOU SOW. THOSE WHO CHAMPION HOMOSEXUAL BEHAVIOR, DEVIANT BEHAVIOR, MAY THINK THAT YOU ARE BEING MORE "LOVING", BUT LOVE IS NOT GUSHY SENTIMENTALISM, AND IN FACT, IT IS HATEFUL NOT TO GIVE PEOPLE THE TRUTH THAT WILL SET THEM FREE.BUT YOU CANNOT GIVE WHAT YOU DO NOT HAVE. WHAT ALL PEOPLE NEED TO LEARN IS THE JOY OF OBEDIENCE TO YHVH, CREATOR AND SUSTAINER OF THE UNIVERSE, INSTEAD OF THE THRILL OF DISOBEDIENCE.  MESSIAH YESHUA DIED TO SET US FREE FROM THE WORLD, THE FLESH, THE DEVIL AND FALSE RELIGION, AND FREE TO WORSHIP AND SERVE THE MOST HIGH GOD, YHVH! I AM  NOT SO GREAT, BUT I AM SO GRATEFUL TO MESSIAH, AND FOR THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE COMMENTED WITH A SPIRIT OF HUMILITY AND GRACE, AND COURAGE, AND WHO HAVE SPOKEN THE TRUTH IN LOVE TO THE PEOPLE WHO ARE RABIDLY AGAINST THE MORALS AND ETHICS OF GOD. WE ALL HAVE FREE WILL, WE CAN CHOOSE TO DO RIGHT OR WRONG, AND YES, THERE IS RIGHT AND WRONG. THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A TEST AND A TEMPTATION IS THAT THE TESTER, GOD, WANTS YOU TO PASS, AND THE TEMPTER, SATAN, WANTS YOU TO FAIL! I AM PROUD OF THE BLACKS WHO VOTED FOR THE BAN, AND TO IMPLY THAT THEY WERE IGNORANT BECAUSE THEY DID, IS AN INSULT. LISTEN TO YOURSELVES, THOSE OF YOU WHO CHAMPION THIS EVIL CAUSE: "LAST GASP, COLD, DEAD HANDS OF MORONS, LOATHSOME HATERS". THAT'S NOT EVEN CIVIL DISCOURSE. I HAVE ALSO HEARD COMMENTS FROM SOME OF YOU ABOUT "TOO MANY CHRISTIANS, NOT ENOUGH LIONS" AND READ ARTICLES BY SOME OF YOU ABOUT THE "ROTTING CORPSE OF CHRISTIANITY". IS THAT HOW YOU SHOW LOVE? DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHAT THE WORD MEANS? IF YOU LOVE SOMEONE, YOU DON'T INFLUENCE THEM TO SIN! MESSIAH CAME NOT TO CONDEMN SINNERS, BUT TO SEEK AND TO SAVE THEM THAT ARE LOST. DON'T YOU KNOW THAT YOUR ARE POOR, WRETCHED, BLIND REBELS, AS WE ALL HAVE BEEN, WE ARE ALL SONS OF ADAM AND DAUGHTERS OF EVE, BUT YHVH LOVES US IN SPITE OF WHAT WE ARE, SINNERS, AND HE SENT HIS SON, MESSIAH YESHUA, TO SAVE US FROM THE PENALTY, POWER AND EVENTUALLY, THE PRESENCE OF SIN. THOSE OF EVERY NATION, TONGUE AND TRIBE WHO RECEIVE HIS FREE GIFT OF SALVATION, BELONG TO HIM AND DON'T EVEN WANT TO SIN. I REALIZE THAT THE THINGS OF GOD ARE SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED AND THAT THE NATURAL PERSON CANNOT UNDERSTAND THE THINGS OF GOD, THEY ARE AS FOOLISHNESS TO THEM THAT BELIEVE NOT. SO, I ENTREAT YOU, BELIEVE AND RECEIVE. HE IS CALLING YOUR NAMES, AND WHOEVER HEARS THE CALL, AND HEEDS THE CALL, AND OBEYS THE CALL, WILL BE SUPERNATURALLY TRANSLATED FROM THE KINGDOM OF DARKNESS AND CULTURE OF DEATH AND INTO THE KINGDOM OF HIS DEAR SON, THE KINGDOM OF LIGHT AND LIFE. IT DOESN'T MATTER WHO IS IN THE WHITE HOUSE, WHAT REALLY MATTERS IS, WHO IS ON THE GREAT WHITE THRONE! THERE IS NOT A SUPERIOR "WHITE" CULTURE, THERE IS NOT A SUPERIOR AMERICAN CULTURE, OR SUPERIOR BLACK CULTURE, THERE IS A SUPERIOR GODLY CULTURE. IT IS NOT MANKIND SEEKING "GOD", BUT IT IS A CASE OF GOD SEEKING MANKIND AND WANTING TO HAVE A RELATIONSHIP WITH US. HE IS A HOLY, SET APART GOD, AND HE WANTS US TO BE SET APART FOR HIS PURPOSES, HERE AND HEREAFTER. THERE IS MORE TO LIFE THAN GIVING IN TO TEMPORAL DESIRES, THERE IS THE ETERNAL. MAY GOD HAVE MERCY ON YOUR SOULS. MAY HE, BY HIS GRACE, DELIVER YOUR SOULS FROM A PERSISTENT, DEVIANT LIFESTYLE THAT SULLIES THE NAME OF THE SAVIOR WHO DIED FOR YOU! TRUTH IS TRUTH, WITH OR WITHOUT OUR CONSENT. WON'T YOU GIVE CONSENT TO THE TRUTH? I ENTREAT YOU TO ANSWER THE CALL, AND FOR THOSE APOSTATE "CHRISITANS" WHO SAY THAT YOU MAY PERSIST IN THAT SINFUL LIFESTYLE, WHEN MESSIAH RETURNS, HE WILL SURELY SAY, "GO AWAY FROM ME, I NEVER KNEW YOU".

PLEASE RESPOND TO HIS LOVING KINDNESS. I AM RESPONSIBLE FOR SPEAKING THE TRUTH IN LOVE, BUT I AM NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR RESPONSE. HE IS PLEADING WITH YOU. THE SADDEST WORDS IN SCRIPTURE ARE "NO ONE CARE FOR MY SOUL". WELL, YOU CAN'T ACCUSE ME OF THAT, BECAUSE I CARE DEEPLY. JUST AS I WOULDN'T LET MY CHILD PLAY IN THE STREET IN TRAFFIC, NEITHER WOULD I LET YOU DELIBERATELY DAMAGE YOUR OWN  SOULS, SELF INFLICT, WITHOUT THROWING YOU A LIFELINE! DON'T HATE YOUR OWN SOULS! AND DON'T HATE ME! WE ALL GIVE OUT OF OUR ABUNDANCE, AND "OUT OF THE ABUNDANCE OF THE HEART, THE MOUTH SPEAKS". STOP RAILING AGAINST GOD AND HIS MESSIAH! FALL ON YOUR KNEES AND ANSWER HIS CALL!

I TRUST THAT I HAVEN'T MADE A TYPO, THAT YOU CAN CRITICIZE. I SEE THAT YOU MAKE A MOUNTAIN OUT OF A MOLEHILL, BUT THAT YOU TRIVIALIZE GRAVE MORAL ISSUES. ISSUES THAT SHOULDN'T EVEN BE UP FOR DEBATE. I AM HOPING THAT YOU CAN, AT LEAST, UNDERSTAND WORDS AND SENTENCES, AND IDEAS. THANK YOU FOR READING THIS, IF, IN FACT, YOU HAVE. AND THANK YOU FOR CONSIDERING MY THOUGHTS. FROM A BOND SERVANT OF MESSIAH YESHUA, I AM PRAYING FOR YOU.

Someone please explain some of the basics for me: how do you relate the civil rights of a race to the civil rights of, essentially, a choice in lifestyle?

1960's to 1970's - African Americans fought for their rights, basic rights given to every human that went against U.S. law

1980's to 1990's - media outlets, political pundits (more on the Left that the Right) begin inserting correlations between American minority groups, and start to include homosexuals as a minority group.

2000 to Present - There continues to be an association with the struggles of African-Americans (a race of people), and the struggles of homosexuals (a life-choice). There are many other groups of minorities in America(Hispanic Americans, Native Americans, etc..), yet no one ever associates those groups with the choice of lifestyle.

Even if you argue that it's not a life choice but has its origins at a biological level, what does that have to do with the struggles of a race of people?

Those of you giving blessinggirl a hard time about her view on gay rights are wrong.  She is right that they should not align themselves with the civil rights movement.  Interracial marriage should have never been an issue but was an issue with this country but because of prejudice it was.  God never condemned interracial marriage but does condemn same sex marriage.  I just hope and pray that this country stands for what is right in the site of God.  God defines marriage is between a man and a woman, not between two women or two men.  When it comes to immoral issues it is wrong.  Again interracial marriage is not a moral issues but gay marriage is.  Let us understand that there is a difference between the two.   If anyone having problem with that person is having a problem with God.  

Nikirene, thanks for your support.  But you keep offering saccharine when I requested raw sugar.  Thanks, but no thanks.  My solution is not to register my domestic partnership.  My solution is to live somewhere that acknowledges that right, such as Massachusetts.  I was planning to move to CA after school, but there is no way I will pay any more taxes to a state that takes backwards steps to legislates injustice.  I encourage other gay CA voters who are able to do so to do the same.  

Black Panthers Sun, I am astounded at how your problem with gay women turned to your own personal loss.  Boo hoo.  Get over yourself.    

Bishopric and Amazed-At the end of the day,I respect your views despite the immense amount of negativity that has spewed forth from your comments.  I am glad that the hundreds of children and families I have worked with to save from abuse, neglect, suicide, drug addiction, illiteracy, teen pregnancy, and homicide don't feel that I am as vile as you do.  You both sound like the Phelps family.  Amazed, I attend church and was raised there all my life.  Thanks for asking.  If you all were the only representation to draw me ""ne'er to thee", you make poor examples.  

Simply put, this land was founded for RELIGIOUS FREEDOM.  That is American History 101.  The separation of church and state has been interwoven into the fabric of this nation, so that religion does not dictate our politics.  So those who can only come up with these archaic arguments of ""God's Way" need to remember that.  How about you do what you were supposed to -keep that argument behind YOUR closed church doors and stop using it to influence politics?

To answer the original question, do I think that Blacks are to blame for the passing of Prop.8?  No, I don't.  I agree with womanistmusings regarding the LGBTQI community and the Black church.  I respect the positions of those who have religious conflicts with the legislation.  However, I have a problem when the religious doctrine acts as Sharia law of the land in America.  This is not just with LGBT rights, this goes for abortion, the death penalty, etc.  I always hear the argument that you can't pick and choose what you want out of the Bible from the same people who are not protesting en masse the construction of casinos, shrimp shacks, gold manufacturing, payday loans, women in the pulpit, and cotton polyester blends, which are all prohibited according to the same Bible you tout.  I also do not hear the cry for Black America to re-enter slavery, as the argument used for hundreds of years to keep Blacks in captivity by every Sunday going to meeting good church folk was that the slave should honor their master.  If you are going to use that line of logic, then follow it to the fullest rather than letting your emotions invade your rhetoric so that it comes out as incoherent babble.  Amen on that...

This issue shouldn't even be up for debate. Good grief, live and let live.  I just can't seem to understand why anyone would want to take aim at the issues affecting Gay and *** BROTHERS and SISTERS, literally and figuratively.

Civil rights are rights for us all.  How can we, as black Americans, have such a strong "judgmentality" (yes, I think I made up a new word!)? Using religion is no justification at all...'tis this judgment that kept us in chains...

The fact that GLBT rights are at the end of the line when it comes to civil rights seems driven by two things, predominantely:  1)  a lack of education, understanding, and acceptance of the science of sexual orientation--for the great majority it is no more of a choice than our skin color; and 2)  judgemental condemnation of "other" that is typically found in conservative religious sects and also in intergenerationally ignorant peopl--who are often afraid of anything "different".  I am heterosexual and have known many, many GLBT people, and I find them to be just like heterosexual people:  there are good, bad, and ugly but no more or less than in the heterosexual population.  Why didn't blacks support the prop?  I'd suspect the religion and lack of acceptance of difference.  There's going to be some very, very interesting journeys for Americans in the wake of the Obama election, with regard to looking at our own shadow side, and that includes blacks, and their own prejudices.  Since Nov. 4, it is no longer possible for blacks to blame anyone for failure to support a black person in the presidency.  If whites had not voted for him, he would not have won.  I'm white; I voted for him; I'm happy for the change because I believe he's a man who sees above the petty differences and refuses to be a victim--and he challenges us all to do the same.  There are so-o-o-o-o many more important issues we have to tackle than worrying about someone else's sexuality, but it matters because it's one more place where we can kick someone who is different from the majority, and hide behind our own version of God, or whatever, to justify our prejudice.  I'm looking forward to watching all of the hidden prejudices of Americans, including black folk , become exposed and watch how they're dealt with.  It's the elephant in the living room that will finally be exposed.  Let's get on with it; the sooner we get them out in the open the sooner we can began to help heal those, too.  God bless all of us, no matter our color or sexual orientation.  The hating has to stop, and it has to begin with each one of us, individually.

Homosexuality is a choice, not something God created them to be. To say that they can't help it, they were born that way, is an out right lie. God created Adam and Eve, not adam and steve, so there is no civil right's issue. To separate them as if they were their own God created society is insane. A civil union should be enough to provide them with the benefits they need as a couple.

Amen to all African-Americans (Bible believing or not) who saw and I hope will always see through the lies.

I  disagree with both those in the gay community who want to blame blacks for the result and those in the black community who insist on portraying the LGBTQI community as composed of rich white people who did no outreach to minority communities because they couldn't be bothered. In terms of building movements, yes, outreach is necessary. But in this context, the no campaign wasn't "expecting anyone to do their bidding," it was fighting a group of people trying to amend the constitution to take away an existing right. No gays of any race should have been forced to go to churches, black or white, with cap in hand begging straight people not to take away the right to marry. This shouldn't even have been on the ballot. Majorities should not be able to deny the rights of a minority. What would the result have been if Loving v. Virginia had been put to a popular vote?

The no campaign was flawed, but to blame the people  who worked to defeat the amendment for the loss is to blame the victim. I blame the organisations that put the initiative on the ballot, and funded the campaign, and spread the lies.  And every single person who voted for it, no matter what their race. Obviously the appalling racism coming from some in the gay community needs to be denounced, as does hatred disgused as religion.

Is this is about tax breaks and other petty things like that? As a married Christian man I will give up those rights in order to protect the sanctity of marriage and my Faith. Problem solved.

NO?

Hello Mex-G-Ride.  I suspect you've not taken the time to educate yourself about the complexity of the human sexual response and all the nuances of it.  One good source for you to begin is reading the book "What You Can Change and What You Can't" by Martin Seligman, PhD.  He addresses many things, not just sexual orientation.  You're comments point to my original assertion, that   religion and ignorance are generally what's behind this brand of discrimination.   I'd like to point out that per the Christian religion, Old Testament,which is what you're referring to with mention of Adam and Eve, God created an incredible diversity of human expression and condition on this planet--the various races and skin colors being only one of the more obvious ones.  Which does God prefer, do you think, if any?  Or does God prefer that we love one another in spite of, or because of, our beautiful differences?  Fundamentalism seems to forget the New Testament teachings where Christ tried to teach us to love one another and stop judging...that's the hard part, though.  Loving anything different from oneself.  So many seem to prefer Judgement, and a sense of "My God is better than your God."  But we do have a constitutionally guaranteed right to freedom of religion, and discrimination against other religions is another one of our ugly practices.  It all comes back to choosing to grow and understsand and accept--no, embrace--differences.  You can't expect the same for yourself if you're not willing to extent it to others, you know.  Except as you receive it by the grace of others who forgive you in your struggle to be free.  Ahh, good luck in yours!  I'll be rooting for you (sorry for the silly pun!)

nobodyzip:  Listen to your word choice:  "...the sancity of my Faith."  The operative word here is "my."  We have a constitutional right to believe--have faith in--any religion we choose.  But the separation of church and state should ensure that no one's faith rises above another's when it comes to basic human rights.  Tolerence is what what we need to save this world from fear and hatred-disguised-as-religion.   Religion has the potential to be the death of us all, if we don't have the sense to keep it to ourselves.  Fundamentalism of all kinds, Christian, Muslim, whatever, is the one of the best vehicles I've ever seen for intolerence and judgement and violence.  If two people love one another and want to create family together, more power to them.  We need all the love we can get going on this planet of ours.

Marriage is the key to inheritance, insurance coverage, adoption and more.  It's all going to come down to Brown vs. the Board of Education.  "Seperate but equal is inherantly unequal".  We will have our black brothers and sisters to thank when we win this right.  Then we can let the churchs decide if they will recognise and perform the ceremonies, or if those have to be civil.  The right of the church NOT to recognise gay marriage is another one I defend.

It really is a matter of mathamatics. What gender is highest by count, goes to black churches?

what gender is by count in all penal institutions? If down low males and the birth rate of black boys

is  oounted.....it is fairly simple who voted for proposition 8. there is a shortage of black males. and black women are going lacking. to give the rest of the lot free range to make the "decision" between a same sex pardner or the opposite is more than the average woman can justify. she is trying to protect herself.

They voted against Prop 8. A very selfish reason in deed, but understandable.

I definitely understand what epifanee is trying to say.  This is not about any single right that may or may not be denied to a gay couple who cannot legally marry.  This is about equality.  Socially and legally there should be no distinction. There should be no reason to construct a new term for a loving, commited, legally bound relationship simply because the members are of the same gender.  These distinctions are made because of bigotry, plain and simple, US vs. THEM. "The sanctity of MY marriage is threatened by THEM", PREPOSTEROUS!

The bible, or any other religious text is NOT a valid source of CIVIL law.  YOUR CHURCH WILL NEVER HAVE TO ACCEPT GAY MARRIAGE there is no valid reason to deny it civilly.  In this country we are required to accept that not every one lives by the same 'divine law'.  

We should have learned by now:

"Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, Malay and red, and He placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with His arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that He separated the races shows that He did not intend for the races to mix."-Leon Bazile, Trial Judge of Loving vs. Virginia.

One day all of this bigoted, anti-gay bible rhetoric will look equally asinine.

As for now, my only hope is to educate.

For the vast majority of cases, if not all, homosexuality is not a choice.  This is evidenced by the fact that homosexuality rates are more or less constant through history and from one country to the next.  Go ahead, look it up, the world in not 'turning gay'.  Also, please look up the brain scans done on the heterosexual population versus the homosexual population and see how they differ.

Please consider this as well, If Man is for Woman and it's all black and white, then how do you deal with the intersex community?  Who should a woman with Complete Androgen Insensitivity Disorder (this is a outwardly physically normal woman who is chromosomally XY and has internal testes) be forced to marry?  How about those with 50/50 XX/XY mosaic hermaphroditism?  What about those with Klinefelter's or Turner's Syndrome or any other physically or chromosomally intersexed condition?  Admittedly, these are rare conditions, but they DO exist, if your God made you, they he certainly created them as well, right?  Obviously there is some "grey" area when it comes to the body, why is it so hard to imagine such variation in the brain as well?

Gahh, sorry for the typos.

Evangelist.  Are you serious? Why would you compare homosexuals to drug dealers and prostitutes.  Those are professions, do you think being gay is a profession?  I'm even outraged at your notion that being gay is somehow a choice, but that's a whole different discussion, and there's a certain level of ignorance with which I refuse to enter into discourse.  Good luck with all that...

I think that everyone should read up on Virginia vs. Loving and see the arguments given against interracial marriage. Many were the same ones used t